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JRT

Wiring woes

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JRT

Recently I pulled out the engine of a 416 H model 73423 serial 6900001+ to replace the seat of the intake valve. It appears that I missed something when I put it back together.

The 30A fuse blew melting the connector (See photo). I need to verify the connections to the regulator and I would appreciate someone with a similar tractor to help me verifying the wiring. I also need to replace the connector but I have no idea how to pull the connector from the fuse box. If you know how to do it, please share it with me.

Thank you

JRT

FuseBoxDetail.jpg

RegulatorWiring.jpg

FuseBoxBk.jpg

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JRT

Let me take a crack at this - I am currently working on a basket case 520H - much of the electrical problems are similar to your 416.

I may have a few helpful hints to get you started on the right path.

First, the 30amp fuse holder MUST be repaired. Replacement fuse blocks contacts may be available if you can grab the manufacturer off the fried fuse block and give them a call. If not, the 30 amp circuit could be repaired with replacement connectors shown below

autofuseholder.jpg

These can be found at an auto parts store - the one you choose should be rated for at least 30 amps. The current wires to the fuseholder for the 30a fuse will need top be cut from the melted holder and linked into the new replacement fuseholder. More costly fuseholders are available (upwards of $50) that will support replacement of all three fuses in the current melted holder.

The meltdown problem you see within the holder is most likely not from a one time over current event.

The issue is more likely from long term effect of high current flowing thru a corroded fuse blade connection . A high current flowing thru high resistance = high heat and that is what melts the holder.

The diagram below shows your tractor's circuitry which uses the 30 amp fuse.

The red path shows the charging current to the battery , the purple shows the current path to the starter solenoid.

416-1electrical.jpg

Step one will be to get the fuse holder repaired / replaced and then perform a few resistance checks to assure you have the wires connected back to their correct locations.

Use the wiring diagram below to get a start.

416entireelectrics.jpg

Make some preliminary checks and give us a message back.

I'll be happy to hang in there with you until we can resolve the issue,

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JRT

to extract the terminal(s) from the housing - the terminal will have some sort of locking "tang" attached to secure itself in the housing (red arrows outlined below)

connectortang2.jpg

a careful visual inspection of the housing under a magnifying glass and good light will usually allow you to see the tang(s) - the tangs could be located at any place on the terminal body - varies by manufacturer.

careful compression of the tang(s) with a jeweler's screwdriver will allow the terminal and its wiring to be pulled from the rear of the connector.

obtain a new terminal - crimp the terminal to the wiring and reinsert the new terminal back into the housing.

it's just that simple :scratchead:

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JRT

JRT

...

First, the 30amp fuse holder MUST be repaired. Replacement fuse blocks contacts may be available if you can grab the manufacturer off the fried fuse block and give them a call. If not, the 30 amp circuit could be repaired with replacement connectors [sNIP]

Actually this setup leaves one open well so I'm thinking to move all the fuses to the right one step over and in the process I will replace the connectors on the 30A fuse and of course on the 25A too since they are one assembly.

The meltdown problem you see within the holder is most likely not from a one time over current event.

I'm not so sure. About a month ago (give or take a week) I took the engine out. Upon replacing it, call me paranoid but I checked all the connectors and fuses and the 30A was fine. Unfortunately I found that the pictures I had taken of the wiring harness to guide me were gone from my phone and had to rely on memory and paper diagrams I drew. The connections to the regulator (see picture on original posting) were mostly an educated guess and that's where I think the problem could be. After the assemblage I noticed that the voltmeter shows the battery is not charging when the tractor is running BUT if I use an external charger the voltmeter works correctly. So I believe, as you indicated that the fuse assembly must be changed/repaired BUT I don't think is going to solve the problem. Yesterday I bypassed the fuse altogether with no changes whatsoever.

The red path shows the charging current to the battery , the purple shows the current path to the starter solenoid.

I get the concept (thanks!) but when I try to understand what wires ought to measure current, when and how much my brain melts down. Enclosed is a composite showing all the wires on the main harness. Which one should be carrying the charging current from the alternator? I measured the voltage of what everybody identified as the regulator the black&grey wire carries 2 volts with the engine on (actually the black wire does)

I can't figure out how this works. 4 cables spread on 3 terminals at the regulator. RED and GREY dead end on the harness connector. Both end on terminals that have no cables on the other side. They are empty. Is there a methodical approach to troubleshoot this thing?

Thanks a million

HarnessConnectorDetail.jpg

Blown30AFuse.jpg

By the way here is a view of my 'blown fuse" Do you still think it melted over time?

JRT

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JRT,

Thanks for the update. Great pictures by the way.

The burned out husk of what I assume is the 30amp fuse is a classic example of long term high current heating effect caused by corrosion. So is the brown appearance of some of the contacts in the engine control harness - especially the upper left corner pic.

Think about it - if you forced a sudden surge of lets say 35 amps thru a 30 amp fuse - the fuse internal element slowly "melts" - usually within a few seconds - you see a melted wire in the fuse body and the fuse body and leads remain looking like they originally did ( give or take a little). If you dead shorted the battery thru the fuse to the chassis, you may blacken the inside of the fuse but the fusible element melts long before you have a chance to cook the entire fuse body like in your picture.

Same idea for the white plastic engine harness connector - the brown discoloration is from cooked plastic - where is the heat coming from ?? The "Molex" style connectors used in this tractor series are in a harsh, corrosive environment. Vibration causes the connections to loosen - corrosion starts within the metal terminals and a voltage drop develops across the corrosion.

If you have a 10 amp current flowing across a 1 ohm resistance (contact corrosion) the electronics formula to calculate power = current squared times resistance

so 10 amps x 10amps x 1 ohm resistance = 100 watts !!

100 watts of connector heating is the same as laying a 100 watt soldering iron on the connector.

Not to make more work for you but I would still recommend cutting out the white 9 pin connector and soldering and heat shrinking the appropriate wires together. Future electrical issues will be prevented.

enough of Mr Science......................

Here is my 2 cents - Repair the 30 amp connector to your satisfaction - repair or remove the 9 pin connector and replace all the fuses.

REMOVE THE + and - LEADS FROM THE BATTERY in case you do have a direct short to chassis ground. This is also a good practice to preserve the life of your volt ohm meter.

Visually check the regulator for any marks on the case for + or AC

This may help to isolate any stator or B+ lead swaps.

The regulator wiring setup you have appears correct IN RELATION TO WHAT I SEE IN MY 520. Hopefully someone else can chime in here if they believe the regulator may be different in your model.

Turn the ignition switch to off position.

Next, do a resistance check from the B+ lead on the regulator to the chassis ground - should be very high / infinite ohms. If it reads low - say less than 1000 ohms - you may have a pinched white wire. Where's the pinch ??? - Remove the fuse while measuring the ohms - if the ohms go infinite when you pull the fuse - the pinch is in the white lead heading to the starting relay - if no change - the pinch is in the white lead from the B+ on the regulator to the white wire connection on the 30 amp fuse.

Now my brain hurts :scratchead: so let's get this far and call it a day.

I'm here all week folks - be happy to help you thru the next step when we get the above checked out and new observations made.

Cheers

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Then there is also this to consider

SAFETY RECALL

IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE NATIONAL TRAFFIC AND MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY ACT, HARBOR FREIGHT TOOLS IS RECALLING THE FOLLOWING PRODUCTS:

STOREHOUSE 120 PC. AUTOMOTIVE FUSE SETS, MINI BLADE TYPE AND BLADE TYPE, HARBOR FREIGHT TOOLS' ITEM NOS. 92939 AND 92940 (SHOWN BELOW)

MANUFACTURING INCONSISTENCIES MAY EXIST WITH THE MATERIALS, CONNECTIONS OR SIZE OF THE FUSE ELEMENTS, WHICH COULD RESULT IN THE FUSES FAILING TO PROTECT THE CIRCUIT FROM EXCESSIVE CURRENT RESULTING IN DAMAGE TO A VEHICLE AND POSSIBLY A FIRE.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/recalls/fuse_sets.html

its possible !

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JRT

went back thru your post and I apologize - I did not answer your direct question regarding which wire in the 9 pin connector carries the charge current - that would be the WH or white wire listed on the schematic posted. But that begs the question why the B+ lead is RED on the regulator but White on the engine connector ??

time to get out the ohm meter and trace the wiring from regulator to the engine wiring connector - let us know.

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JRT

Just curious - the picture of the fried fuse - a 30 amp ATO style fuse should be green in color

Is there any evidence that the body on this fuse was a green color - cant tell from the photo - is there a manufacturer's ID on the body? Just curious

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JRT

from your previous post

"After the assemblage I noticed that the voltmeter shows the battery is not charging when the tractor is running BUT if I use an external charger the voltmeter works correctly. So I believe, as you indicated that the fuse assembly must be changed/repaired BUT I don't think is going to solve the problem"

This is good troubleshooting info. I'm making the assumption the battery charger is NOT hooked up to the tractor in your first scenario where the tractor is running but the voltmeter is showing no charge. If the voltmeter is reading correctly when you have the charger hooked to the tractor, the charger is just acting as a substitute for the stator/ rect/ reg function.

So again we are back to checking out the charging function.

lots of good info on this site for charging system troubleshooting - just use the search function for "regulator" or "charging".

In a nut shell - all wires should be disconnected from the rectifier assembly - run the tractor at high speed - set voltmeter to AC function to measure about 30 - 40 VAC and measure between the two stator leads - you should see better than 24 vac. If not - stator or stator wiring is bad.

If voltage is good - reconnect stator wires ONLY to the rectifier and again measure the AC volts at the rectifier terminals - if voltage is significantly less than what you measured with the stator wires off the rectifier, the rectifier is bad.

If VAC is still good with the stator wires connected to the rectifier, Measure the DC volts at the B+ lead on the rectifier (without your RED wire connected to the B+ lead of the rectifier)

If the DC volts are approximately 13 - 14 at the B+ lead, rectifier is probably OK.

If output from the B+ is OK, reconnect your "RED wire" to the rectifier. Measure the B+ terminal again. If the DC volts are still 13 - 14 , check the dash voltmeter - still reads low? - we have a wiring issue.

We still need to see where the RED wire goes when it leaves the rectifier

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JRT

how goes the battle ??

Partstree.com has the entire fuse holder assembly for just over $10

Chuck

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