Engine not cranking - C-165

[goldeagle 30]

Tried starting one of my C-165's today after not using it for a few weeks. The engine was cranking but wouldn't start up, I assumed it was something to do with the choke/throttle as they had been causing some problems since fitting a new carb. After trying several times, decided to check the fuel and turned out the tank was bone dry which would explain why it wouldn't start. Filled the tank up, seat back down, turned the ignition - completely dead, engine no longer cranking, just nothing.

 

So, something happened in between me initially trying to start the engine and then filling the tank with fuel. I'm assuming no power is getting to the starter. Any suggestions for trouble shooting? Should I just overide all the interlock switches to see if that is the issue?

 

Thanks

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,539]

Power to the starter solenoid goes to one half of the pto switch and the clutch or neutral switch before the solenoid.

The other half of the pto switch controls the ignition.

That's if you have what I think you have. Got a tractor model number?

[goldeagle 30]

It's a C-165 just dug out what I think is the wiring diagram for it. When I have the clutch in and turn the ignition I can hear a clicking noise, which I assume is the solenoid?

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,539]

C-165 is the model name. Each model year used a different model number.

What is the number of the manual you have. See if I can find it so we are on the same page.

[goldeagle 30]

ah right the tag says model 01-16K8-91

 

I just pulled a manual from this forum, it has reference 810233R1 on the front

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,539]

I see a mistake in the pto area. Says PTO off but should be PTO on.

With PTO off the red wire is powered to the neutral switch.

Try pulling the pto lever back as you try to start.

 

Have now changed the diagram.

[953 nut 52,132]

3 hours ago, goldeagle said:

Should I just overide all the interlock switches to see if that is the issue?

     WHY!  why is it that so many people want to mess up their safety switches when searching for the cause of an electrical problem.   Do a bit of basic trouble shooting.   Your gas tank was empty, perhaps your battery is bad;   do the headlights work?    

Why won’t my starter turn over from the key switch?\

Lets take a logical step by step inspection of your starter problem.

Is your PTO in the ON position, a wheel horse will not start with the PTO on.

Have you had the battery load tested at an auto parts store?

Have you cleaned and tightened all electrical connections including grounds?

Are all fuses good and fuse holders cleaned?

If these have all been done, we can check components of the starting system as follows; don’t skip a step or you may miss the problem.

Be sure the transmission is in neutral and the parking brake is set.

Take a pair of automotive jumper cables and connect the black cable to your battery  "-" and a good clean spot on the engine. Now connect the other cable to the large post on the starter and touch the other end to the battery "+" terminal, does the starter turn over? If the starter turns over the battery and starter are good. If it didn't turn over try the same steps with the battery in your car/truck, if that cures the problem then the "good" battery wasn't so good.

Presuming the starter turned over move the jumper wire from the starter post to the other end of the wire going to the starter which is one of the large posts on the solenoid. If the starter turns over when the battery is touched by the jumper as before then that cable is good, if not you have found your problem.

Presuming the starter turned over move that jumper to the other terminal of the solenoid, connect the other end to the battery and use a small piece of wire to temporarily connect the battery "+" terminal to the small terminal on the solenoid, this should cause the solenoid to close and the starter to turn over. If not, the solenoid is probably the problem.

If this was successful remove the large jumper cable and use the small jumper wire to the small terminal of the solenoid, the solenoid should close and the starter turn over. If not the cable to the battery is the problem.

Presuming all of these have been successful remove the black jumper wire and repeat the small jumper to small terminal, if the starter turns over the ground is good.

If all of these components test good then remove your ignition switch, be sure the transmission is in neutral, parking brake on, clutch depressed and PTO off. Use a small jumper to connect the terminals that were connected to the “B” and “S” terminals of the ignition switch. If the starter turns over then the PTO switch and other safety switches are operating properly and your ignition switch may be bad

[J854D 128]

@953 nut, @goldeagle, if I may, I would like to make an important amendment to Richard’s detailed troubleshooting steps for the purpose of safety. Do any touching of jumper cables/wires for testing purposes as far away from the battery as possible. Make your firm connection with the jumpers at the battery first and then do the “touching” at the other end of the circuit you are testing. Any sparks generated from these tests around a battery (especially a discharged one) can cause an explosion. That’s why it’s always recommended that when jump starting vehicles you make your last connection on a solid frame ground away from the battery. -JD-

[squonk 39,104]

C-165 shaker plate engine. Check the ground cables on the motor mount plate.

[goldeagle 30]

Had a look at this today and followed some of @953 nut suggestions. The battery certainly seems fine - I can crank the engine if I connect direct from the battery to the solenoid. Pulled the back of the ignition switch off and struggled to find the 12v battery terminal, not helped by the wiring not matching the wiring diagram. Going to have to spend some time trying to follow the wiring through over the next couple of days.

[goldeagle 30]

Realised I was looking at the wrong c-series diagram, just found the diagram below which looks a lot better:

 

 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,539]

This is the wiring for your tractor. 1984 is different.

Your 1980 01-16K8-91 model number was used for Belgium production. Use 01-16K801 for info.

 

[goldeagle 30]

On 4/29/2024 at 2:20 AM, gwest_ca said:

This is the wiring for your tractor. 1984 is different.

Your 1980 01-16K8-91 model number was used for Belgium production. Use 01-16K801 for info.

 

 

Sorry that was my fault, I provided the wrong model number - I have 2 C-165s, one European and one USA. It is the USA one I am having issues with (the model number is really faded but I think it is 1116K801). The previous wiring diagram I posted is definitely the right one as the wiring matches.

 

So, I 'think' it is an issue with the solenoid. As I mentioned I can crank the engine fine when connecting direct between the battery and starter terminal. I have 12v at the solenoid input, and I also checked I am getting 12v at the 'control' signal into the solenoid when pressing the clutch in. I can even hear the solenoid clicking when turning the ignition, but there is just no 12v output to the solenoid.

 

Has anyone seen this sort of issue before with the solenoid? Just seems really strange that I can hear the contacts closing in the solenoid but no output. I really need to get this tractor started so I can use the rotovator attached to it, so I thought I might make a temporary connection between battery and starter with a switch in between, and just switch it on when turning the ignition.

 

I also learnt the hard way not to hold the spark plug and turn the ignition on 

Edited April 30 by goldeagle