K-341AS - Slight Knock - OK to use as is?

[Fordiesel69 226]

I know older well worn kohlers do develop a piston slap sound as well as the big end connecting rod slop.  Is this engine ok to use as is?  It is most noticible when the engine is going into or out of a load. It does not burn oil or have any blow by.

 

It has 1800 hrs and has had oil changed regularly.

 

Video:

 

 

Edited April 21 by Fordiesel69

[ri702bill 7,364]

IMHO - 1800 well maintained hours on a faithful old girl begging for proper help.

Got a spare "go to" working WH?? If so, time to shuffle the batting order and give this one a proper looking over to access the true cost for a long term fix....Once you ventilate the block with a broken rod, your choices  are already made for you..

[Fordiesel69 226]

I know all that.  That is why I wanted a second listen.  Is this a normal kohler rattle as i have heard this on many 14 / 16 hp.  Less on the 12 and 10 hp. 

[OutdoorEnvy 1,445]

You know it looks like the engine is shaking a good bit to me in that video.  I would caution against running it looking that bad.  If it does blow a rod it could ruin the cylinder walls completely with a deep hit.  I would save it now while you can.  One thing is for sure...it won't fix itself and will only get worse from here.

[Fordiesel69 226]

I have torn others down and the rods look perfect.  And it was a waste of time.  I mean its not that hard to have a look i guess.  But the entire under side of the hood has every oil chnage written on it since 2021 back.

 

Here is a oil gushing / knocking 14HP I torn down with this same kind of knock.

Edited April 21 by Fordiesel69

[squonk 38,989]

I had a 1000 HR K341. The noise I had was the same piston rattle but just a tick louder. I had a spare engine so I swapped it out. Tore the engine down and the piston skirt was broke and there was a  balance gear roller bearing in the oil pan. Unless you have X-Ray vision like Super Man tear it down.

[ebinmaine 63,281]

14 minutes ago, squonk said:

balance gear

 

I'd be FAR FAR more concerned about letting the "grenade gears" loose than other noises.  

[Pullstart 59,838]

I was thinking balance gear too.  Get ‘em out before they leap out!

[Fordiesel69 226]

So i have removed them in 12HP K301's can the bigger 16HP K341's operate without them on the rubber cradle mount.

[Fordiesel69 226]

you guys win.  I will tear it down for a look see.  I just need to know if for certain these can run without the gears.  

 

Or if i get lucky and they are in good condition could I leave them?

 

Will the always break or just when they get loose and start grinding?

[squonk 38,989]

The needle bearings fail and the gear starts to wobble. That's what breaks them

[ebinmaine 63,281]

33 minutes ago, Fordiesel69 said:

and start grinding?

There's no "kinda wore"

 

They catch on each other and the failure is catastrophic.  

 

If you change to solid mounts you can certainly use the engine without the balance gears. 

On a rubber mount.... I can't say. 

 

 

[Fordiesel69 226]

Just need to know if the 16 HP can run without them?  I have personally only read about them breaking.  I have never had it happen in person but hop to not start on a trend........

 

 

[ebinmaine 63,281]

Just now, Fordiesel69 said:

Just need to know if the 16 HP can run without them?  I have personally only read about them breaking.  I have never had it happen in person but hop to not start on a trend........

 

 

 

 

My own 1975 C160 Automatic has the K341. 

I personally removed the loose balance gears. 

The vibration is... different... but not obscene. Until it gets to the upper RPM range. 

I've never checked actual engine speed. 

 

When it gets bad, it vibrates the chassis SIDEWAYS enough to make the battery acid start dripping out. 

 

I just lowered it a little to get to a more friendly RPM.  After that it's perfectly happy for hours on end.  

 

 

CAN you remove the gears?

Yes. 

How will your own machine behave...?

 

[Wild Bill 633 770]

Once you have the rod, piston and rings to be installed, you can have the crank rebalanced.

[Fordiesel69 226]

1 hour ago, Wild Bill 633 said:

Once you have the rod, piston and rings to be installed, you can have the crank rebalanced.

Not anymore.  Our local machine shops closed up a few years ago, and if you ship your stuff somewhere these days you will be lucky to have it back in 6 months.  

[bds1984 1,385]

On 4/22/2024 at 8:57 PM, Fordiesel69 said:

Just need to know if the 16 HP can run without them?  I have personally only read about them breaking.  I have never had it happen in person but hop to not start on a trend........

 

 

 

I've been running my C165 without the balance gears for a decade now with little concern. The vibrations I've observed were from idle to about 2,100 RPM but completely disappeared at speeds above that.  

[kpinnc 10,846]

My K321 in the Bronco (solid mount) has no balance gears anymore either. The vibration is there, but is not bad at all. Above half throttle it has no abnormal vibration. The "whine" of the gear mesh is also gone. 

 

And I no longer worry about ventilation of my block. I'll take peace of mind over a bit of low rpm rattle any day. 

 

Edited April 27 by kpinnc

[RED-Z06 2,130]

On 4/21/2024 at 5:17 PM, Fordiesel69 said:

I have torn others down and the rods look perfect.  And it was a waste of time.  I mean its not that hard to have a look i guess.  But the entire under side of the hood has every oil chnage written on it since 2021 back.

 

Here is a oil gushing / knocking 14HP I torn down with this same kind of knock.

That dull finish says dirt intrusion or carbon abrasion on that one, probably had a nice rattle to it

[Fordiesel69 226]

All small engines have this appearance on the rods. 

 

I will be doing a tear down this week if the weather holds out.   

Edited Sunday at 07:36 PM by Fordiesel69

[Fordiesel69 226]

[Fordiesel69 226]

Really bummed out.  The prior owner did a bodge job.  The rod has a little scoring but you can't feel it with your finger, and the crank pin looks really nice.  Very shiney and no scratches. The problem is around TDC and a little after there is slop.  Anywhere else there is not.  So it would appear I need to get a replacement crankshaft ad my local shops all closed down. 

[RED-Z06 2,130]

44 minutes ago, Fordiesel69 said:

Really bummed out.  The prior owner did a bodge job.  The rod has a little scoring but you can't feel it with your finger, and the crank pin looks really nice.  Very shiney and no scratches. The problem is around TDC and a little after there is slop.  Anywhere else there is not.  So it would appear I need to get a replacement crankshaft ad my local shops all closed down. 

I doubt you can get a new crank from Kohler... i cant even get new cranks for some modern Kohlers still in production. That rod looks really bad, have you measured the crank to see if its already turned under, or how out of round it is?  New cranks last listed around $750, can probably get NOS cranks on ebay for half that.

[Fordiesel69 226]

[Fordiesel69 226]