B 80 no spark

[Rattlecan 67]

Ok. I need help again. B80 that I was thinking was not charging so I looked on the internet to see how to trouble shoot and it said to ohm between the two wires coming from the stator and it should be .1-.2 ohms. I pulled the little plug off the back of the regulator rectifier and put the ohm meter leads on the terminals coming from the stator and got .2 ohms. I also read that you could check it by measuring across the two stator leads with it running and get about 28 volts ac. So I tried to start and did not have the plug connected to the regulator and it spit and sputtered would not run. I plugged it back in and still nothing. Pulled the plug out and held it against block and no spark. Did I fry something cranking it with plug off the regulator.  I obviously am not good at electrical troubleshooting. It has not given me any trouble starting to this point except when the battery was down. Thanks in advance for any help, where to go from here. 

[uglyblue66 107]

ooops this is the Electric tractor portion of the site.

But I am not so sure you could blow the ignition side by unplugging the voltage regulator.

i would be checking to see if i pulled another wire loose while unplugging the regulator.

[Rattlecan 67]

 

Someone let me know I posted this in the wrong place. I can’t even post in the right place, I put it under electric tractors. I didn’t even know there was such a thing. Ok. I need help again. B80 that I was thinking was not charging so I looked on the internet to see how to trouble shoot and it said to ohm between the two wires coming from the stator and it should be .1-.2 ohms. I pulled the little plug off the back of the regulator rectifier and put the ohm meter leads on the terminals coming from the stator and got .2 ohms. I also read that you could check it by measuring across the two stator leads with it running and get about 28 volts ac. So I tried to start and did not have the plug connected to the regulator and it spit and sputtered would not run. I plugged it back in and still nothing. Pulled the plug out and held it against block and no spark. Did I fry something cranking it with plug off the regulator.  I obviously am not good at electrical troubleshooting. It has not given me any trouble starting to this point except when the battery was down. Thanks in advance for any help, where to go from here. 

 

[ebinmaine 64,056]

 

 

I got this from @squonk awhile ago. 

 

 

 

 

 

If it turns over it is not the ammeter. Go to a auto parts store and get a cheap test light and an INLINE SPARK TESTER. 

Leaning the plug on the engine can confirm spark but IS NOT always accurate. 

Confirm no spark first. If you do not have spark, confirm 12 at coil positive. If you have 12 volts there, use the test light on coil negative. While cranking the engine, test light should flash. If it stays lit points are grounded. If it stays off, open in coil.

 

A proper spark tester is a necessity. 

I've personally seen several occasions where a plug would fire outside the engine but NOT inside while under compression.  

 

 

 

[SylvanLakeWH 24,525]

 

You will get a lot more feedback if you post  in this section:

 

https://www.wheelhorseforum.com/forum/65-wheel-horse-electrical/

 

Oops... see you already did!!! 

Edited April 9 by SylvanLakeWH

[wallfish 16,263]

The charging circuit ( Stator, regulator and associated wiring ) is completely separate from the ignition circuit. The only thing common and connected to both is the ground side of the battery. So unplugging the regulator in itself could not affect spark. Something else got messed with if it had spark and was running before that. 

Follow and test all the + wiring to make sure there's 12v at the + side of the coil. Verify there's a good ground for all the wiring

 

[953 nut 52,967]

Your charging system has nothing to do with a no spark condition. Use your DC volt meter to see if the "+" post of your ignition coil has 12 volts +/- with the key in the run position.

[squonk 39,546]

Messing with the wires on the regulator could have effected the wires connected to the nearby ammeter. Make sure the ammeter connections aren't loose.

[Rattlecan 67]

Thanks for all the info. Got a high quality in line spark tester from HF, ha ha, and a test light, on the way home from work. I had an old one but light bulb was blown out.  Put in line tester in and had spark.  Figured that meant plug was bad so I took the one out of the 312 8 and the b80 started. The bad plug is only a yr old.  This solved the issue I thought I had caused when I cranked it with regulator unplugged. Seems odd that plug would go bad at that instant but it is how my luck runs sometimes. Now of course I need help AGAIN. Back to what I was trying to do when I thought I messed something up and maybe I did. What is the proper way to test the charging system?  When it is running the ammeter does  not indicate that it is charging, sits on 12v all the time. I guess the meter could be bad. I can charge the battery and it will last for 2 or 3 cutting episodes then it is dead so I wanted to see if the charging system was working properly. The battery is about a yr old also but that doesn’t mean it is good. Thanks again in advance. 

[Handy Don 11,013]

11 hours ago, Rattlecan said:

 What is the proper way to test the charging system?

Do you have (and know how to use) a voltmeter?

If yes, the quick and dirty test is to measure the voltage across the battery terminals when:

1. the engine is off with a charged battery (expect ~12.5 volts; if not, battery isn’t fully charged)

2. the engine is running at idle (expect ~12 volts; if lower, suspect bad battery or poor charging)

3. the engine is running at mid-to-high speed (expect ~14 volts; if less or more by more than 1 volt, further investigation is needed)

 

 

Edited April 10 by Handy Don

[Rattlecan 67]

Thanks for the reply. I like quick and dirty if it works. I do have a volt meter. And I think I can set it in the proper dc setting on the dial and check voltage across battery terminals in the three scenarios listed above.  Definitely am not an expert at electrical troubleshooting by any means. Will try it this evening and see what kind of readings I get. Thanks again. 

[Rattlecan 67]

1). 12.8

2). 12.2

3). 13 mid throttle.  13.2 fullish throttle. 
 Yr old battery charged all day with Nikko charger said fully charged

thanks in advance again

 

[Handy Don 11,013]

8 hours ago, Handy Don said:

1. the engine is off with a charged battery (expect ~12.5 volts; if not, battery isn’t fully charged)

2. the engine is running at idle (expect ~12 volts; if lower, suspect bad battery or poor charging)

3. the engine is running at mid-to-high speed (expect ~14 volts; if less or more by more than 1 volt, further investigation is needed)

 

 

9 minutes ago, Rattlecan said:

1). 12.8

2). 12.2

3). 13 mid throttle.  13.2 fullish throttle. 
 Yr old battery charged all day with Nikko charger said fully charged

thanks in advance again

 

Nos. 1 & 2 are fine.

So for #3, since you had only just used the battery to crank/start the engine, 13.2 volts isn’t terrible, but it should be higher. That said, the fact that it is higher than the #1 voltage shows you are getting some charge from the stator. This is good!

 

From here I would do two things.

First, check the battery again after the engine has been running for five minutes. It the voltage goes up to the 14 range, then good. But that’s miracle, go buy a lottery ticket wishfulness

.

Second (because it hasn’t miraculously self-healed) it’s highly likely that you’ve got one or more bad electrical connections. The answer is to go through them all one by one, clean any and all rust or corrosion off with emory or wire brush, wipe clean, and reinstall solidly with a bit of dielectric grease (or Vaseline) applied to inhibit future corrosion. Make sure the battery connections themselves are tight and clean. While doing this, also check where the wires enter the termination connectors for fraying or serious corrosion that may indicate it’s time to replace the whole wire. Yes, this is a bit tedious, but when outdoor machines reach "a certain age”, the electrical connections are often a bit tired.

 

 

[Rattlecan 67]

I cut for about 10 min and checked with voltmeter again while it was running at cutting rpm’s and it was about 13 but a couple of times it jumped up to 13.8 13.9 momentarily. It stayed mostly around 12.9 to 13.  When I had plug off regulator the other day I cleaned

ed those spades and put contact goo(technical term) on them.  I need to check what other connections?  There is a third wire in regulator plug, don’t recall where it goes. Connections at  ammeter and coil?  Condenser no. I did get a continuity tester the other day when I got the spark tester, will that help any. I think it was two different ones, one for 6 12 volts and one for 24 36 volts. Thanks again for your help

[Rattlecan 67]

Forgot. I did clean battery terminals and leads the other day and put contact goo on them. 

[Handy Don 11,013]

Took a day off the forum!

 

My next test would be to see that you have clean connections to GROUND throughout the tractor. Battery to engine ground, rectifier to engine ground, etc. 

You can use the Resistance setting on the meter (you are looking for near zero ohms between the battery negative terminal an all of those ground connections).

You can also use the volts setting from the battery positive to the different ground points and confirm that the readings are identical to what you get at the battery ground terminal itself.

 

My next step, would be to find the wire that connects the rectifier to the ignition switch (the wiring diagram says “orange” but take that with a grain of salt) and then do the same voltage tests as before but instead of the battery + terminal, test at either end of that wire.

[Rattlecan 67]

Not sure I understand. The Battery is grounded to the frame base of motor. Is the rectifier grounded thru the two mounting screws?

 

[953 nut 52,967]

8 hours ago, Rattlecan said:

Not sure I understand. The Battery is grounded to the frame base of motor. Is the rectifier grounded thru the two mounting screws?

 

Yes, it is "GROUNDED" but if a connection is corroded or not tight enough there will be resistance resulting in voltage drop,

[Rattlecan 67]

Thanks. I will start on it this afternoon and see what I can find. 

[Handy Don 11,013]

The trick to this is remembering that the power “from” the battery positive terminal has to get to the battery negative terminal via a complete circuit. We are always aware of the wires but it’s easy to forget the other part.

 

Even us experienced folk mess this up. I did a refurb on my K181 and forgot to scrape the fresh paint off the starter/generator mounts to make good electrical ground contact with the engine. At first, i just couldn’t figure out why the engine wouldn’t crank.

 

Also, the rectifier needs a good, clean ground to do its job properly. The. AC from the engine will go back and forth on just the two stator wires, but the DC output on the wire needs the ground to make the complete circuit!

[Rattlecan 67]

I think I did all that you checks suggested above.  I’m still not sure where the rectifier gets it’s ground, thru the mounting bolts to frame? It mounts to a plate that it and the anmmeter is mounted to then that plate mounts to metal column. Do I need to run a ground from battery to ammeter mounting bolt even if I got the same voltage from batt + to mounting bolt at rectifier. Any way the voltages checked out using the + battery terminal and the yellow orange wire to the switch. I still have about the same voltages as 1,2 and 3 above.  The wire from rectifier to switch is kind of yellow orangish. I cleaned every connection I could find all terminals in ignition switch, ammeter posts, rectifier terminals battery ground cable to engine block/frame. What would you suggest next, replace rectifier/regulator?  Does the regulator only charge battery when it needs to? Is it supposed to fluctuate? It seems like it bounces around when checking across batt terminals when it is running. Thanks again.