Starter/ Generator question

[wallfish 15,936]

This is for a custom so not WH typical stuff. Just some "thinking out of the box"  type stuff

Can a S/G be spun the opposite direction as the start motor is intended to turn without screwing up the start motor ?

This is a S/G from a Simplicty?(because it's short ) that I want to use as a motor only to drive something in reverse off the same jack shaft driving the wheel. Just wasn't sure if it will do some unintended damage to the windings. I don't see why it would be a problem but electronics is not my strong suit.

 

Pulley sizes are not to scale

 

 

 

 

[squonk 38,955]

Are you sure which way the simplicity gen turns? I know Cub Cadet gennies turn opposite of WH ones. I think most Briggs ones turn the same way. I would think reversing polarity would make it change direction

[953 nut 51,770]

23 minutes ago, squonk said:

Cub Cadet gennies turn opposite of WH ones.

         The S/G on Cub Cadets turn counterclockwise, Wheel Horse and most others turn Clockwise.

[wallfish 15,936]

Yes I'm 100% certain of the direction it turns. I had to power it up just make sure it works. Set like the drawing above it will reverse the direction to the wheel when power is applied.

It's painted Simplicity orange so that's just a guess. Looks original paint. This is an old school one because it has the flip cap oil ports on it

Edited April 23, 2023 by wallfish

[WHX?? 46,810]

10 hours ago, wallfish said:

 it has the flip cap oil ports on it

Be careful about dumping a quart of oil down those... I have many with those but sealed bearings inside. 

[wallfish 15,936]

So the consensus is ?  

spinning it the opposite direction shouldn't screw the start motor stuff up?

I'm probably going to find out anyway unless someone says it's a problem but didn't want to waste a whole bunch of fab time and effort mounting it and changing a few things only to see some magic smoke.

If it still produces power too then maybe try to figure something out to use it if it does. The engine charging system is good. Also thinking about a way to just engage the belt when the motor is needed and not spin it all the time

 

[ebinmaine 63,211]

48 minutes ago, wallfish said:

I'm probably going to find out anyway unless someone says it's a problem but didn't want to waste a whole bunch of fab time and effort mounting it and changing a few things only to see some magic smoke

Can you strap/clamp it to a bench and let it run something temporary for a bit to see what happens before fabbing?

 

49 minutes ago, wallfish said:

Also thinking about a way to just engage the belt when the motor is needed and not spin it all the time

Probably not a bad idea.  

[ri702bill 7,343]

2 hours ago, wallfish said:

thinking about a way to just engage the belt when the motor is needed and not spin it all the time

 

John - a one way sprag clutch?? Drives in one direction, over runs and freewheels in the other. Compact too - looks like a needle bearing on steroids - and rated for decent HP and RPM too. McMaster has them... I put one inside a gear hub years ago.....

Note - the shaft needs to be hardened and smooth - like linear rail. The bearing needs to be lubricated - made O-ringed end caps with a pipe plug for ATF....

Edited April 23, 2023 by ri702bill

[wallfish 15,936]

1 hour ago, ri702bill said:

John - a one way sprag clutch?? Drives in one direction, over runs and freewheels in the other. Compact too - looks like a needle bearing on steroids - and rated for decent HP and RPM too. McMaster has them... I put one inside a gear hub years ago.....

Note - the shaft needs to be hardened and smooth - like linear rail. The bearing needs to be lubricated - made O-ringed end caps with a pipe plug for ATF....

The problem with using a one way bearing is that it will still free wheel the direction it needs to engage as well because of the different rotation directions. Basically the free wheel it needs to not turn all the time is the same free wheel direction it needs to engage the shaft when operation is needed

I have some of those bearings from another project that didn't get used. Had to get metric size because I couldn't find any SAE that were also keyed for ID and OD --except for a metric

[wallfish 15,936]

2 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

 

Probably not a bad idea.  

 

Like pushing a small pedal ( maybe from a 60s mower deck )  to engage the belt and it also hits a switch to power it up. Release the pedal so it powers down and releases the belt  

That will probably be plan B if it creates havoc with the S/G just running it reverse. It would be nice just to simply hit a thumb type button and go reverse. Reverse shouldn't be used too much but it's certainly better than needing to get off and push it. Floor boards will be in the way and prevent just going Flintstone reverse

 

Anyone have a spare 60s style mower deck engagement pedal and the linkage with idler? @WHX??  One that looks like crap? LOL

Edited April 23, 2023 by wallfish

[ebinmaine 63,211]

7 minutes ago, wallfish said:

Anyone have a spare 60s style mower deck engagement pedal and the linkage with idler? @WHX??  One that looks like crap? LOL

John, Trina has the pedal for sure. It was on Millie and isn't being reinstalled. Not sure about the other stuff but somebody could post a pic I bet we have that as well.

 

[squonk 38,955]

51 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

John, Trina has the pedal for sure. It was on Millie and isn't being reinstalled. Not sure about the other stuff but somebody could post a pic I bet we have that as well.

 

Ignore the PTO stub experiment.

 

[wallfish 15,936]

2 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

John, Trina has the pedal for sure. It was on Millie and isn't being reinstalled. Not sure about the other stuff but somebody could post a pic I bet we have that as well.

 

The pedal thing and any additional parts should be fairly easy to fab up. It does add more WH parts which is the intention. Please let me know if you find it and how much. Maybe pass it off to Sparky at Zags

The only downsides, more weight and or ending up with too many controls to operate it like it's a cockpit.

[ebinmaine 63,211]

1 hour ago, wallfish said:

The pedal thing and any additional parts should be fairly easy to fab up. It does add more WH parts which is the intention. Please let me know if you find it and how much. Maybe pass it off to Sparky at Zags

The only downsides, more weight and or ending up with too many controls to operate it like it's a cockpit.

 

We have the pedal but nothing else.  

I can pass it along to Sparky for sure.   

 

[Handy Don 10,628]

20 hours ago, wallfish said:

Can a S/G be spun the opposite direction as the start motor is intended to turn without screwing up the start motor ?

This is a S/G from a Simplicty?(because it's short ) that I want to use as a motor only to drive something in reverse off the same jack shaft driving the wheel. Just wasn't sure if it will do some unintended damage to the windings.

I think we need @Achto in on this.

 

My suspicion is that an S/G driven backward is more a problem of how the brushes might be angled to work smoothly in the correct direction and chatter or catch in reverse.

 

From my basic (way old) electrical courses, an S//G driven backward will generate reverse voltage (speed dependent). If wired backward at the “starter” and ground, it will motor backward. But this leads to a question--how are you gonna isolate the shell of the S/G (which is the ground electrically) so that you can juice it with +12v and make the ground the terminal so as to make it spin in the “wrong” direction (I guess you could also put -12v on the starter terminal and not mess up the other wiring)?

[Achto 26,573]

Honestly I'm not sure how spinning the S/G backwards would effect it. @Handy Don pointed out some possible effects of doing so. Is it possible to disengage the S/G belt when it is not being used for reverse? I have seen some Harley's with a side car that used a Bendix style starter on the side car wheel for reverse. 

[wallfish 15,936]

17 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

 

We have the pedal but nothing else.  

I can pass it along to Sparky for sure.   

 

Thanks !!!

 

3 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

I think we need @Achto in on this.

 

My suspicion is that an S/G driven backward is more a problem of how the brushes might be angled to work smoothly in the correct direction and chatter or catch in reverse.

 

From my basic (way old) electrical courses, an S//G driven backward will generate reverse voltage (speed dependent). If wired backward at the “starter” and ground, it will motor backward. But this leads to a question--how are you gonna isolate the shell of the S/G (which is the ground electrically) so that you can juice it with +12v and make the ground the terminal so as to make it spin in the “wrong” direction (I guess you could also put -12v on the starter terminal and not mess up the other wiring)?

Isolation if necessary can be achieved with some plastic tube and washers at the mounts.

I don't need to reverse polarity to spin the motor in the direction I want. The normal operation of it is the correct direction. I won't have the F connection connected to anything for the field of generation. The solenoid will be normally open when not motoring it so that isolates the + power side and maybe a diode in the start wire to the solenoid but IDK. A solenoid for the ground wire can isolate that the - side

With the pedal from EB, it shouldn't be spinning except for engaging the motor to drive reverse. 

[WHX?? 46,810]

5 hours ago, wallfish said:

 

Like pushing a small pedal ( maybe from a 60s mower deck )  to engage the belt and it also hits a switch to power it 

 

Anyone have a spare 60s style mower deck engagement pedal and the linkage with idler? @WHX??  One that looks like crap? LOL

Yes I have a couple if EB bones ya. 

[ebinmaine 63,211]

4 minutes ago, WHX?? said:

Yes I have a couple if EB bones ya. 

All I got's the pedal Jimbo.  No linkage.  

[WHX?? 46,810]

13 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

All I got's the pedal Jimbo.  No linkage.  

I have the linkage then 'Fish you need it. 

[wallfish 15,936]

57 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

All I got's the pedal Jimbo.  No linkage.  

 

42 minutes ago, WHX?? said:

I have the linkage then 'Fish you need it. 

 

Thanks so much guys !!!

I'll figure out what to do and what it needs to work properly in the next day or two

[wallfish 15,936]

On 4/23/2023 at 6:29 PM, Achto said:

I have seen some Harley's with a side car that used a Bendix style starter on the side car wheel for reverse. 

This is great alternative instead of using that big heavy S/G. Found an old Teccy starter with the bendix gear worn and it's so much smaller and easier to mount too. A ring gear would be too big so it's time to figure out how to engage it, pulley, sprocket, friction disk ???. Either way I'll probably still need those pedal parts to engage disengage.

[wallfish 15,936]

Electric clutch? Like from a car AC compressor? That would be just a single on off switch and solenoid to engage and power the starter

[Achto 26,573]

33 minutes ago, wallfish said:

A ring gear would be too big so it's time to figure out how to engage it,

 

Would you have enough room if you put the ring gear on one of the wheels?

[wallfish 15,936]

7 hours ago, Achto said:

 

Would you have enough room if you put the ring gear on one of the wheels?

Maybe inside the deep dish side of the rim. Maybe key the whole flywheel in there on the shaft. I'd have to find that flywheel to check out the fit but it may have been given away.