Static Timing K161 issue

[pfrederi 17,129]

Working on a K161??  Spec 28626 (should be on a 753??)  (that is what the shroud says but the block is painted white) and it came on a tractor I bought for the head lights which isn't a 753.  Anyway I like to static time but there is no port hole in the shroud and the only timing marks on the flywheel are on the inside edge. There is a  V shaped cutout in the rear edge of the bearing plate am I correct in guessing that is where you make your static timing???

[squonk 38,845]

That's correct Paul! 

[squonk 38,845]

Some have a hole

 

[953 nut 51,536]

Paul, your engine is a spark advance engine rather than a compression release. You can check your timing with a timing light once it is running but static timing won't work. The suffix of your engine should be "E" or lower letter.

The Kohler engine manual in the Red Square files section covers two methods for setting the ignition timing, Static Timing and using a Timing Light. This manual is a relatively new manual and it overlooks the fact that many of our engines were built prior to the ACR (automatic compression release) camshaft.

Earlier engines (mostly 1965 and earlier) had a Spark Advance camshaft that can not be timed using Static timing. At rest (and very low RPMs) the timing is retarded to fire slightly after TDC. The timing mark (SP) on your flywheel is at twenty degrees before top dead center but at rest the points on these engines break about ten degrees after top dead center. The only reliable way to check or set the timing on these engines is with a timing light.

There are a couple ways to determine what camshaft you have. Presuming the camshaft in your engine is the one it was born with the data plate on the engine has a suffix that can tell you what camshaft was used. The table below will tell you the suffix applicable to your engine

 

 

The following engines have the spark advance camshaft;

K-141, Suffix prior to “C”

K-161, Suffix prior to “J”

K-181, Suffix prior to “D”

K-241, Suffix prior to “D”

Edited January 17, 2023 by 953 nut

[pfrederi 17,129]

Thank you Richard.  The suffix appears to be an E or F.   I am thinking the Air Shroud is not original to this engine.  Once I clean it up a bit will pull the head.  Roll it over and see if the exhaust valve pops up or not on compression.  I am also going to measure the stroke as it may be a K181

[pfrederi 17,129]

The engine is a K181 stroke measure 2.75  and the exhaust valve pops up a trifle durng the compression stroke so I guess it is ACR

[squonk 38,845]

43 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

The engine is a K181 stroke measure 2.75  and the exhaust valve pops up a trifle durng the compression stroke so I guess it is ACR

Sounds like it Paul. Maybe the shroud is off an older engine. About the only way to tell for sure is to remove the pan and look at the cam.

 

Spark Advance cam:

 

ACR Cam:

 

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by squonk

[953 nut 51,536]

23 hours ago, pfrederi said:

I am thinking the Air Shroud is not original to this engine.

The flywheel seems to be from an early engine too. The "T" and "S" marks on the back of the flywheel won't do much good for static timing. I guess you could create your own static timing marks and pep hole. Drill a hole in the engine shroud, set the piston at TDC and mark the edge of the flywheel them measure back to the right the same distance as is marked on the back and make a mark for spark.

Edited January 18, 2023 by 953 nut

[pfrederi 17,129]

46 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

The flywheel seems to be from an early engine too. The "T" and "S" marks on the back of the flywheel won't do much good for static timing. I guess you could create your own static timing marks and pep hole. Drill a hole in the engine shroud, set the piston at TDC and mark the edge of the flywheel them measure back to the right the same distance as is marked on the back and make a mark for spark.

 

I think that to V cut in the engine end plate is the access for timing.  Will put flywheel back on roll to TDC and see if the TDC mark is in center of the V

[squonk 38,845]

4 hours ago, pfrederi said:

 

I think that to V cut in the engine end plate is the access for timing.  Will put flywheel back on roll to TDC and see if the TDC mark is in center of the V

Both of the K181's that I did last year had the marks where yours are. And that V  is where you set the timing. 

[pfrederi 17,129]

Well this is odd.  When the piston is at TDC the SP mark on the flywheel is centered in the V.(PIc 2)  When TDC shows up in the V the piston is down 1/4" (pic 1) 

 

Edit;  The Flywheel key is at 12:00 when piston is TDC..

 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by pfrederi

[pfrederi 17,129]

Wasn't planning on getting far into this engine... Pulled the pan it is an ACR.  I am going to put a new mark on the flywheel same distance ahead of the SP as it is ahead of the TDC (whch is late)  Use the new mark as SP and the existing SP mark as new TDC (as that is where the piston is at top.) 

 

Wrong flywheel ...who knows... 

[squonk 38,845]

If I remember right, they only had 2 flywheels for the K181. Recoil start or Starter/gen . Starter /gen model had holes to mount the belt pulley. K161 who knows?