Jump to content
giantsean

Did I blow up my K532?

Recommended Posts

So now that I finally had my D-200 running right (or so I thought), it decides to act up.  It had been backfiring on shutdown for a couple of days, but today it really complained.  I heard what sounded like a clunk (not a good one) and the engine started racing.  A lot of stuff is sticky on this thing so I throttled down and let it idle, sounded ok so I let it back up and got back to work (plowing - wasn't using the PTO, though it's still permanently spinning).  A few minutes later it started to smoke and I could tell it was running WAY hot.  Shut down and it backfired more than once and dieseled a bit before it died... that was unpleasant.

 

Made sure oil was ok and it was clean so I let it sit for about a half hour to cool off.  It took a long time of cranking but finally turned over, blew out some puffs, and ran.  I limped it back to the garage.  At one point it stumbled, kicked out a sh*t ton of blue smoke (def oil just based on the smell) and kept going.  I managed to park it and of course it backfired one last time on shutdown.

 

So many possibilities are going through my mind.  Is the electric fuel pump that now makes it run right flooding the engine? is it running too lean/rich?  Blown head gasket?  Did something actually break? (I had a friend w/ a kohler engine - forgot what model - that broke an oil slapper on the end of the rod, with predictable results).  

 

Old machines eh?

  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course that is a twin cyl engine and it will run fairly decently on one cly --- soooo, I would pull the plugs and see if one just might be really fouled. My first guess would be busted piston. Pistons can be had, but rods ---- well, not so much.

 

Try and not run it anymore, thats just inviting more problems.

  • Like 3
  • Excellent 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, pacer said:

Of course that is a twin cyl engine and it will run fairly decently on one cly --- soooo, I would pull the plugs and see if one just might be really fouled. My first guess would be busted piston. Pistons can be had, but rods ---- well, not so much.

 

Try and not run it anymore, thats just inviting more problems.

Plugs looked good and all valves moving.  Decided to break out my brand new compression tester (which I pretty much purchased solely for the fact that my cr@ppy one from the 90's was only reading 30 psi on this tractor from when I was test driving it).  A pleasing 110-115 on each.  So I hope that rules out something disastrous, but man that was a mighty puff of smoke.

 

Do these things have a tendency to overheat?  I have worked it pretty hard for a 40 year old machine over the last few days, and it was only really what I'd call a borderline hot day today.  Would the sticky PTO maybe be contributing to overheating, and that's what could have explained the noise and freer running if it let go temporarily?  Pulling all that stuff apart is next on the list after I fix whatever is wrong here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Head gasket most likely. Usually they smoke after being warmed up but that still does not explain the sound you described

Edited by Thisguyisnew
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The biggest cause of overheating on any air cooled engine would be a restriction in the flow of air past the cylinders. If you remove all the tins from the engine and give it a through cleaning that would probably help.    :twocents-02cents:

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Running too lean will also make an engine run hot.  If you shut it down with out idling it down for a bit first you can get a really loud pop out the exhaust especially if it is running lean.  The muffler gets really hot and the carbon inside will actually glow.  When you turn off the key the engine pumps raw gas vapor into it as it spins down and BANG

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks gents.  I'll try cleaning it up a bit and see what else I can find.  

 

The only real difference has been adding the electric fuel pump (Facet cube model 40163, rated at 1.5-2.5 psi max).  I did also install a K&N screw in filter on the pump inlet, it filters to 40 microns.  Even given my limited experience w/ carbs I don't believe restriction could cause a lean condition in and of itself, but again that was the "upgrade"  Or if the pump is causing the engine to flood instead maybe a replacement carb or Sarge's bypass trick is the way to go.

 

How about the smokeshow though... could it have been unspent fuel dumped in from the period where it cranked excessively?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Check the engine oil - see if smells like fuel ...

 

Sarge

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/14/2017 at 8:15 AM, Sarge said:

Check the engine oil - see if smells like fuel ...

 

Sarge

 

It does, probably more than a little (every single inch of this thing smells like gas lol).  It was also pretty dark - darker than the day this all happened.  Maybe time to service that carb or just replace it with an e-bay special for a little more.

 

(and change the oil lol)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If its still got a crankcase vacuum driven fuel pump, the internal diaphrams go bad and let fuel pump down thru the vacuum line into the crank.  Sounds like a complete going over of the fue system and removal of the cylinder head tins and inspection of the flywheel side of the cylinder jug cooling fins is in order.  Fuel in the oil is WAY BAD, totaly toxic to bearings and will thin out the oil and help with making smoke.  IS the crankcase overfilled due to gas in the oil?  That can also cause smoke as the oil level will be above the level of the piston bores.  Change oil before running engine any more and find where its(the gas) coming from.  You can get an inexpensive laser heat temp gun at Harbor Freight (paid 10 bucks for mine), great for reading cylinder head temps to see if carb is running lean.  Ignition point timing can also cause some of the issues.  You can start with the book setting, but with wear of the plunger and lobe on the cam, the sweet spot is found thru trial and error.  The ebay special carbs are special alright and I am not a fan of them,  Your better off to find a NOS carb rebuild kit and go thru the original carb, it will be time well spent!  Buddy has one those speical ones on his 16hp single K series, cannot find a good spot where it will idle smooth, and not surge at mid RPM and and full throttle, as well as stumble.  I have been thru it twice.  I have his original carb on the bench now getting rebuilt. Once it back on the engine, that special will go right in the bin. I prefer OEM Kohler or Onan parts whenever possible.  They are worth the price of not doing the repair again, do it right the first time.  This comes from someone who until recently spent the better part of my life wrenching on these as a profession.    Mike

Edited by artfull dodger
  • Excellent 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Mike for the honest info.  I'll try a rebuild first (truth be told I kind of like the old stuff too). :)

 

The crankcase doesn't seem unreasonably full but either way that oil gots to go.  The tractor has done it's work for the fall and is now parked in the garage so I will be able to tinker with it in the near future and take my time with it.  I was really happy it still put up good compression numbers and really want to keep it in good shape.

 

I ditched the vacuum fuel pump early on as it seemed to be having problems with fuel delivery and stalling, and most recommended it.  Replaced with an electric Facet cube good for 1.5-2.5 psi max, but maybe it's already too much for the old needle.

 

Flooding / fuel in oil is consistent with the smoke and backfires (and maybe the one time it dieseled when it was super hot) but how about the clunk and the racing?  Not sure how the governors work for these things but could something have gone south?

 

Thx again!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's possible the governor is damaged or broken , but I'd expect it to be a lot more consistent in how it's running . The twin cylinder engine manual has a whole section on setting it - which is fairly complicated but you might want to check it over . Don't completely trust the Facet's psi ratings - they can fluctuate higher at times and that's why I use a bypass filter when using an electric pump . Spent a lot of years fighting the Weber carb setups on offroad trucks with trying to run basically a toilet bowl/tank system nearly upside down and those carbs use a very light leverage float valve setup - this bypass filter was the solution and never let us down as it fed engines well north of 200hp out of little 4cyl aluminum Japanese sewing machines ...lol .

 

I totally agree with Mike about the knockoff carbs - their quality is highly questionable and the one I stuck on my 16hp K has the same issue as all of them - they do not meter at certain ranges very well and at best run erratic . It's getting the original Kohler carb overhauled and re-installed - I'm not burning up a perfectly good K-341 over a $20 piece of Chinese junk . I get tech calls all the time from folks that are trying to use the knockoff Weber clones from China and elsewhere - they are crap at best . They've even duplicated the cast W trademark into the top covers of the DGV series carbs - wish the International Trade Court would do it's job and put them out of business - they are wasting too much of my time . Several suppliers in the US were stocking these things and passing them off as genuine Webers - with the matching price tag as a final insult . I got that stopped by letting a contact in Italy know about it - they got their dealer license pulled and deserved it . I know the Kohler parts are expensive , but the quality is there and worth the money every time...

 

Sarge

  • Excellent 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/12/2017 at 10:34 AM, giantsean said:

Facet cube model 40163, rated at 1.5-2.5 psi max)

Original pump was rated at 3psi max  - can't see where the pump you have could flood the engine with too much gas...:twocents-02cents:

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The pumps made years ago were far better built and a lot more stable - those Facet pumps , even a US made one are pretty erratic at best - run a gauge on one for awhile and you'll find out , I've fought this stuff for years .

 

Sarge

  • Excellent 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bottom line is I had stumbling before the pump and fireworks after the pump (though the "after" worked a sh*t ton better than the before).  By doing just flushing the tank and doing the pump I eliminated the following:

 

- every crusty original fuel line (some sections crumbled in my fingers when I really tugged)

- any old gas

- the old vacuum pump, whatever condition it was in

 

Took off one of the head tins to see what was what... found a little pooling on the bottom but it was pretty old/thick.  Probably would not hurt to do head gaskets at some point.  But even as a relative novice to simple carbs (I've rebuilt one and replaced one in my lifetime), I have to believe that puppy needs a going over.  Guessing that maybe even 2-3psi is too much for an old needle (which may well be jammed with crud)

 

The fact that it even NOW generally runs better than the B&S in my 2007 Craftsman should surprise no one :P

 

Last question - Sarge... do you have a thread or pic of your bypass setup somewhere?  Got plenty more line!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, giantsean said:

The fact that it even NOW generally runs better than the B&S in my 2007 Craftsman should surprise no one :P

 

If that B&S even runs, it is an amazing feat!  B&S = Bull S*it in my opinion.  I have never owned many, but the few I owned were a pure bucket of bolts, just JUNK and nothing more.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Dakota8338 said:

If that B&S even runs, it is an amazing feat!  B&S = Bull S*it in my opinion.  I have never owned many, but the few I owned were a pure bucket of bolts, just JUNK and nothing more.

 

Just this season it's gone from requiring choke to start to requiring choke to run... I don't see it making it through too much more.  But five years out of a a free tractor has been a pretty sweet deal :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No thread , haven't had time yet . It's just a fuel filter for a Jeep CJ (try a 1980 model) with a bypass line ran back to the tank valve and a tee fitting to plumb it into the fuel line before your electric pump . This bleeds off excess pressure and keeps the electric pump cooled . Here is what the filter looks like -

 

59bfbad09ffd6_20170701_2125401.jpg.69be1291ec2834437ce76484db84d1e7.jpg

 

The short line goes to the carb , longer one is routed all the way back to the tank fittings . At the tank , there is a shut off valve , tee and filter before the pump . That return line goes back to the tee fitting to allow the fuel to

circulate and remove any spikes in pressure .

 

.59bfbc89abd10_20160815_1805171.jpg.ce265d3b065fc786bf013adebb6c2fad.jpg

 

Sarge

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So if I'm reading/seeing it right, we're talking something like this?

 

(don't worry... I photoshop really fast :P)

 

fuel.jpg

Edited by giantsean
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Close - I routed the return side to the bottom of the tee to allow air to escape back up into the tank . Over time the amount of bubbles you'll see will diminish . It would work better if there was a second port on the tank , but due to the way it's built and mounted there really is no good place to put it without welding in a new bung .

 

Great job at photoshop - I never did get time to work much with that program .

 

Sarge

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Sarge.  Yeah your 2nd photo is a little rough as at that angle you can't well see where the lines go... it almost looks like the line makes a complete circuit through the pump and back into the tee.

 

So the small filter is a pre-filter on the pump intake correct?  Then pump sends it to the CJ filter, which sends it 1) to carb and 2) back to the tee under the shutoff?

 

If so how do you keep air from getting sucked back down through the pump, if there is any?  Or is there so little that it's not a big deal?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since there is no true return that is separate there are air bubbles that will circulate through the system - they don't hurt anything and over time will go down to nearly nothing . Every time you shut it off , any bubbles right at the end of the return line will rise back into the tank - listen closely and you'll hear them when you shut it off . Some air will escape into the float bowl through the filter and vent to the atmosphere out of the bowl vent . Again , no big deal and using the semi-clear fuel line makes it easy to see if the pump is working due to the moving bubbles . My grandson thinks it's pretty cool , lol...

 

Yes , that routing is correct - I can try to get a better pic tomorrow along with some labels maybe...if I can figure that out on this thing , lol . The small filter keeps debris out of the electric pump - they use flapper valves internally that can plug up easily so it has to have an inlet filter ahead of the pump . The CJ filter is just a secondary and used as a pressure bleeder that allows the excess flow back to the tee fitting . Run one of those pumps without this return setup and they can get quite hot unless they are flowing a lot of fuel (as in wide open engine demands) . This runs the pump dead cool but will not starve the engine , we've tested this up to 200hp 4cyl modified engines with multiple carbs at scary rpm's - remember , this filter originally fed a 258cu/in straight six .

 

Sarge

  • Excellent 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cool no worries.  Yeah I actually didn't think air was too big a deal but since you called it out I got worried lol.  No rush but if you want to take some more detailed pics at some point,  I am happy to label them and update the diagram as well (that red thing in my pic is supposed to be the tee which is hopefully in the right place - yellow is the return obviously - but I can make a nicer shutoff and tee)  Then we will have a good reference for anyone wanting to try it out (like this guy... provided I haven't destroyed it :P)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's the pics I took yesterday - sorry it took so long as I'm fighting the front half of this thing at the moment .

 

I use the Parts Unlimited rolls of fuel line in 1/4" & 5/16" for the tractors and other stuff - the Jeep CJ fuel filter uses 5/16" size line for the  feed/carb ports , 1/4" for the return -

 

59c50ecae3c38_20170921_0859501.jpg.5c77d499b72379f0feb3382037249e2a.jpg

 

Here's a couple shots of the shut off valve and tee setup - the return is plumbed into the bottom

 

59c50e50bb39a_20170921_0857371.jpg.d0e8a2141be84176cd19cd9ec63ed6c7.jpg

 

59c50e79230e7_20170921_0858111.jpg.49cabc39f0b68d5dd5368fd35e17fd10.jpg

 

In the first photo - you can see the fuel filter ahead of the pump inlet - second photo you'll notice the top of the pump and it's wiring near the rear hydraulic manifold and lines . I did it this way to stay clear of the 3pt arms and linkage . Works quite well and as I said before - the pump stays cooler .

 

If you need anything else , just holler .

 

Sarge

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fixed that for ya :)

 

I was going to label the others but I lost the updated diagram when I saved the old one over it, causing me to do this twice (though the 2nd looks much nicer lol) and sapping my will to continue.

 

If you think it will be a popular mod is it worth it's own thread?  Or maybe if there is a document repository on the site other than manuals?

 

fuel.jpg

Edited by giantsean

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×