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Oldman

18 Auto-"Fire"?

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Hello,

    I had rebuilt the engine & pump, re-assembled everything as it was and according the schematic. I fired up the engine and it ran excellent! Then it stalled and I couldn't get the ignition to function? So I checked the wiring and the plug behind the ignition, safety switches-all. I tried three more times and the engine runs excellent, however, the harness just caught fire from the ammeter to the solenoid and back, melted! I pulled the positive off the battery quick. Here is a picture of the harness and the current solenoid. "I could just cry".......I think somewhere, somehow a positive went to ground in the circuit? I am in dire straits on this one and I thought I knew electrical fairly good as I am retired Electrician! Any ideas what I could of done incorrectly?

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I believe the first "cloud" of smoke came from the ammeter. I will have to make another harness up so I am anxious and I have no wire or connectors. I will try finding the same type originally used. Is there a way to trouble-shoot or test the ammeter? I want to by-pass everything just to work on the hydro issue, actually afraid to even run it now!

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Joining the two heavy wires to the ammeter together is how you can remove the meter from the circuit. I often suggest that both wires be added to one ammeter terminal to bypass it but in your case if the ammeter is the cause of the short that is not a good plan.

Garry

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Posted (edited)

Yes, I did splice those two together and taped up the light green back to the ignition so as not to have a bare wire, ha ha ha! I ran the engine for a few minutes, checked the charging system and the light circuit off the ignition. I only seen around 10v off the light circuit and the the ignition was not doing too well after that "melt down". Smoke was trickling from the ignition so I stopped while ahead! The original ammeter froze to the negative side around 5v or so. I can rewire the tractor, but I will get a new ignition as it appears damaged, melted plug. The ignition gets a little warm as does the thinly insulated light green wire back to safety circuit. I thank you for your thoughts and so far you appear to be right.

Edited by Oldman
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Posted (edited)

I am looking at this volt meter in place of the ammeter, any thoughts if it's suited for a Wheel Horse? e-bay 272313738090 If anyone has found one more suited for the 18 Auto I am open to suggestions......When I said suited, it wasn't a question of functionality, it was whether or not the gauge was "worthy" to be used on my 18 Auto. Seems a bit cheap, especially around the front chromed ring.......

Brand new Voltmeter, include wire harness with illumination bulb + holder

8-16V range. 

 

2-1/16” or 52mm mounting holes, with bracket to mount.

 standard ¼” blade connection.

 

voltmeter.jpg.3e99edcbf906a71a3e9dd1db0e7d88f1.jpg

 

 
Edited by Oldman
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Any volt meter with the appropriate range 0-16/18 volts that fits in the dash hole will do.  I tend to use Sunpro as they are at most auto parts stores and ebay...(they have black and white faced (my preference) gauges.

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Volt meters are hooked parallel in any circuit, amp meters are hooked in series, in case anyone is not familiar with these circuit types.

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Posted (edited)

Not a question of series or parallel or even series parallel, it was the correct source for the 12v positive. The statement made earlier indicated that this lead would be on I at the ignition and then a good ground, a ground other than a case ground due to vibrations....... I recall the bare metal under my engine at all four mounting locations, so I left these intact. Then I always take my meter and test for good ground as I build, every step of the way. I look for a nice location for a ground cable, perhaps install a block and run grounds directly to that. I don't want wires running to the battery negative, very sightly. Ammeters are nice until they short to ground, then it's fire time! I questioned my wiring earlier until it was discovered the ammeter failed! The bulb in the switch will go 12v + to the fused light circuit and then a nice ground to the block as well. I found a beautiful N.O.S.Warner Oil Temp Gauge and it picked up 12v + at the I on the ignition as well.

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Edited by Oldman
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Posted (edited)

I see this one has a classic look, seems more suitable, 2-1/16. I will go to the "tractor supply" and find one like this.......

dixco.jpg

 

I found the one they carry a Tisco.

tisco.jpg

Edited by Oldman
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Posted (edited)

 

pfrederi,

              just an update on the ignition/harness. (Ignition 92-6785) I salvaged the wires that I could and replaced the really baked one's! Ha ha ha! I then used the oil resistant 12 awg red wire for the battery positive to the solenoid, B/G By-passed the ammeter altogether.(nasty ammeter) I created an additional lead off the 12v to the oil temp gauge going back to I/M on the ignition. Then when the volt meter arrives (Dixco 1915) I'll land the 12v to 12v + on that oil temp gauge and the ground to the ground on the oil temp gauge. I guess the ignition can be used for both applications even though exact opposites, reverse the ground over to 12+ and the magneto to 12+ as well. Same physically. Technically it is wrong per-say by the symbols on the terminals. However, that is moot, right? I used the factory connectors Packard Delphi Series 56. Done. I ran the tractor and viola' no fire! Ha ha ha! Now the hydro motor exam......and a miracle. Amen.

Edited by Oldman
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39 minutes ago, Oldman said:

12 awg red wire for the battery positive to the solenoid

You should use at least an 8 AWG and preferably a 6 AWG wire to the solenoid from the battery as well as from the solenoid to the starter. All wire contains a lot of "magic smoke" and using too small a wire for the load will release it!   :ychain:

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Posted (edited)

This is the battery positive to the solenoid from the B terminal on the ignition. An 8 awg would never fit into a series 56 terminal connector and then into the ignition plug housing. Now you could squeeze a 10 awg into one, but good luck finding a crimper for that gauge! Yes my heavy wires are 6 awg. The smoke was due to a faulty ammeter, short to positive, not ground. Keeping in mind this is an 18 Auto electrical system not a 1045 or similar, which would make use of a cole hersey heavy duty ignition.

Edited by Oldman
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:text-imsorry:     I thought you were feeding the solenoid with a 12 AWG. 12 will be fine there and it would be a good idea to add a 20 amp fuse to protect the rest of the wiring.

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Posted (edited)

      :DI like that thought and I am thinking an old fashioned fuse block or breaker. The standard fuse on the light circuit is there. Actually, now that you mention that, with a solid fuse in series the ammeter wouldn't fry anything! Except the fuse, ha ha ha!

Edited by Oldman
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Don't use the oil sending unit as a ground for the volt meter , just run it to the same frame ground as the battery/engine so it can properly read the voltage in the system .

 

Sarge

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Oh, really? There is a case ground in the dash? Well, I was going to install a grounding block for all components? The positive union at the spade connector of the temp gauge should be ok then?

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No , create a grounding point in the dash for all the grounds , then run one single wire to either the battery or frame  - otherwise you'll have a whole slew of wires running to the battery .

 

I would never recommend using a temp sending unit as a wiring junction - it may throw the gauge reading off .

 

Since the D's have a huge battery tray - I run a small top post car style battery . Look in the stereo equipment electrical supplies - they have top and side post terminals that accept the large wires for the starters and can have several other small ports for lighter gauge wires to feed amplifiers or grounds and such . Also , some of them have very nice covers and sell pretty cheap for what you're getting . Stereo systems can require huge ground wires as well as multiple smaller gauge grounds to feed equipment to keep noise out of the system - an advantage for tractor/equipment use to create some nice central grounding blocks . They also have dedicated grounding blocks that sit separate of the battery for the same purpose . I build ground spiders with a 1" thick block of insulating phenolic material and a stainless steel bolt/stud for offroad trucks to prevent using common frame grounds since it causes corrosion points . Also prevents high draw lighting from create system noise and rust issues from electrolysis - a vehicle can create an odd inductance field that contributes to corrosion .

 

Sarge

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So, where would you suggest picking up the 12v feed for the volt meter? How about the R terminal? The 312-8 runs the pair of gauges from the R. One lead from volt meter before the light switch, after the fuse. The other (bulb) with the lights after the switch. That should take care it then.

Edited by Oldman

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I wire volt meters directly off the run circuit in the key switch - this prevents running the battery dead , so yes - that works fine .

 

Sarge

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I wired it perfectly and first rain is fogged up! Gonna change it with a similarly wired component.....All else  fails, ammeter and a fuse +.......

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It's really tough to get a quality gauge that is water proof enough not to allow water vapor inside the glass face - Stewart Warner most times won't do that but I have had a couple that would fog up . Some , you can remove the lens and use a light film of silicon to seal the face glass but others it's nearly impossible to get the ring off without breaking/bending it .

 

Sarge

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I have a couple more to try. This one cracked too when I tried to dry it out! The seller sending a couple more to try. At least I get her up and running, Ha ha ha! I used a Harley coil, perfect for the k 482. I have two thirds of her painted, all the hydro, engine, front end and fuel tank........

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It's amazing how good those ugly old D's can look with a new coat of paint - but it's 3 times more work than any other models they made with maybe the exception of the 520s .

Getting a good gauge without buying a really expensive Stewart Warner is tough - been there , done that .

 

Sarge

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Well , have been looking at Stewart Warner real hard of late! The Oil Temp gauge is NOS Stewart Warner, a bit tight in the hole, but works very nicely! Come to think of it the Ammeter on the Sears St-16 has fogged up for many years!

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