K301 rebuild , balance gears keep or throw away?

[briankd 816]

any engine rebuilders on here ? wonder what thought s about the balance gears in my K301. one old timer i know says throw em away another younger guy i know says keep them in there with out  them it will vibrate.

i need to tear it down to bare block have to get cylinder bored out. so will have the balance gears out anyway. the one guy i know says he has kouler tool to put the gears back in. i just read the kouler manual and it a little confusing on  the way to do it  new vs. old style.

[WHX?? 46,774]

I vote lose them. .every guy I talk to says they don't work out well and have known to destroy a block. 

[953 nut 51,682]

Read over this tread and search others. General consensus is to toss them out!

 

[briankd 816]

i was told by a kouler engine guy that guys throw em out cause they don't get them timed right and shimed to spec and they  grenade. just wanted to get some thoughts

6 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

 

Read over this tread and search others. General consensus is to toss them out!

 

thanks and yes that is the general consensus. tried to do a search for this thread and it wouldn't come up for me 

[WHX?? 46,774]

That could be true Brian, in realing the manual sounds a booger to time right with or without the tool. Off a couple of teeth could throw the whole thing out of wack. I still say loctite everything, hang on tight and go for a ride!  I've had a bit of experience when HD tried to balance their motors and that didn't pan out very well either.

[Emmy's Dad 23]

I tossed mine out of my k301. Rather not take the risk of them blowing up. Granted from what I've been told, it's mainly a concern for the souped up engines that see very high RPM's. Engine might vibrate a bit more without them but imho I'd rather deal with vibration over a hole in my block. My $.02

[Shynon 7,435]

Throw them out unless you want one of these.

 

 

[briankd 816]

11 minutes ago, WHX11 said:

 

That could be true Brian, in realing the manual sounds a booger to time right with or without the tool. Off a couple of teeth could throw the whole thing out of wack. I still say loctite everything, hang on tight and go for a ride!  I've had a bit of experience when HD tried to balance their motors and that didn't pan out very well either.

 

i was thinking i would take the block to my buddy that has the timing tool and experience doing this and have him put them in probably would do it for a case of beer. that way if it goes to hell and i have a hole in block i can say he did it maybe get a free block out of it.

[WHX?? 46,774]

Sounds like a good plan if he shares!

[briankd 816]

another note on this this k301 makes my k181 i rebuilt a few yrs back look punny. this thing has some meat to it grabbed this off the tractor frame wow it has some weight. not like the k181 lightweight. guess this is one of the big block koulers. as one of the threads here on RS i was looking at.   

[WHX?? 46,774]

Welcome to the world of big block Kohlers Brian. All that cast they just don't makem like this anymore!

[JAinVA 4,619]

I was faced with the same issue some time back.K301 and balance gears.I was advised by the folks here to lose them.I did and could not tell the difference in the vibrations in the engine.

The balance gears were an option from Kohler on the K series.JAinVA

[Searcher60 208]

2 hours ago, briankd said:

i was thinking i would take the block to my buddy that has the timing tool and experience doing this and have him put them in probably would do it for a case of beer. that way if it goes to hell and i have a hole in block i can say he did it maybe get a free block out of it.

If you just follow the service manual, no big deal putting them back in. It tells you how to see if you have them timed properly after you put them in. However, you should replace both balance gear shafts, both bearings, and you will need a Kohler shim kit to get the the clearances right.  I just bought all that today. Well over $100 bucks. $80 bucks to turn the crank. $115 bucks for the overhaul kit. $40 bucks for bearings. Figure another $80 bucks if you need it bored. 

 

You should read up on the differences between Kohler engines that did not come with balance gears versus those that did. To the best of my knowledge, the ones  that did not come with balance gears use a different crankshaft counterweight to compensate for not having balance gears. 

[ClassicTractorProfessor 5,261]

Another vote here to throw them out, my opinion its not worth the risk of ruining a block to lose a small amount of vibration.

 

5 hours ago, Shynon said:

Throw them out unless you want one of these.

 

 

Nothing a little JB Weld can't fix there  When my old K301 let go last summer it blew that whole side out of the block, leaving the starter/generator laying on the battery, showering my right leg with oil, and sending fragments as far at the neighbors yard across the street. Definitely not an experience I'd like to repeat   

[Searcher60 208]

11 hours ago, briankd said:

any engine rebuilders on here ? wonder what thought s about the balance gears in my K301. one old timer i know says throw em away another younger guy i know says keep them in there with out  them it will vibrate.

i need to tear it down to bare block have to get cylinder bored out. so will have the balance gears out anyway. the one guy i know says he has kouler tool to put the gears back in. i just read the kouler manual and it a little confusing on  the way to do it  new vs. old style.

I am rebuilding my second Kohler in the last two months. Both were letting me know that something was worn out by the rattling and the slight knock that was coming from them at idle and just above idle when hot.  I would bet that the blown engine above was making strange noises long before she let go. Noises that were ignored. Kohler engines do NOT rattle at any rpm when everything is as it should be. There is no Kohler rattle, it's a worn out engine rattle. 

.

Now, in addition to worn out balance gear shafts and bearings, both engines had excessive, out of spec. rod bearing clearance. Generally, the average person does not have the micrometers or bore gauges to check engine clearances. If I remove the bearing cap from a Kohler rod, hand you the cap and rod, how many people know how to put the cap back on the rod the way it should go? It will fit either way, but only one way is right.

.

If you want to ignore the warning signs of a worn out engine, then maybe you should remove the gears? But, when the engine puts a rod thru the block, what do you do, eliminate the rod? Who you gonna blame when a rod let's go on an engine that has been worn out for 10-20 years? Balance gear assembly's eventually wear out, but, by then so is the rest of the engine. To say your 40 or 50 year old worn out Kohler engine blew up because of balance gears is ridiculous. It blew because you were to lazy or cheap to rebuild a long ago worn out engine.

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K-series Kohler's are relatively smooth, quiet, and sorta like a sewing machine when all the clearances are in Spec.. I maintain that the balance gears get a bad rap because people want to continue to operate a worn out engine, or, not do the overhaul properly due to the costs when they rebuild Kohler's. Kohler parts are about 2 times what Onan parts are. It's Kohler robbery. 

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The American way is the "toss" what they do not understand. 

[JAinVA 4,619]

I looked up the Kohler crank shaft service manual and I found it very informative.The manual goes in to great detail about the differences between the various pto  variations but has absolutely no indication of any counterweight difference for the K and M.The only note about counter weights is note about the K301 counter weight being ground flat.If Kohler could balance the engines just by changing the way a crank is drilled or machined why add to the parts count by adding balance gears.The shaker plate engines is another good example of Kohler taking an industrial engine and trying to make it more appealing to the homeowner market.

Edited May 2, 2017 by JAinVA

[Searcher60 208]

He is a link. According to the link, the M is different, is it not? I guess it all comes down to opinion. But, the M12 I just did sure is smooth. 

[JAinVA 4,619]

According to the Kohler literature there is noted a difference in how the flywheel is attached.A nut on the K and a bolt on the M.They indicate a cast L on the cranks for all 12,14 and 16 K and M.Since the journal size and stroke are the same for the 12,14 and 16 they note that the 12 has a flat ground on the throw weight. If you web search for Kohler engine crankshafts the literature by Kohler will show up.It's interesting reading.

[briankd 816]

well i think i'm going to keep the balance gears be glad when this thing is done and back running. now just need to get time to get after it with work and all the other stuff that life throws at ya.

 thanks for all the help and opinions everyone  Brian