geothermal

[jcb857 161]

I live in New Jersery and I have a propane forced air heater that I heat my house with. The price of propane is crazy and it is not going down. I live in the country so there is no natural gas in sight. I have been following the oil/gas market for about three years now and with what is going on with the rest of the world I feel that the price of propane could double in the next five to ten years. If that was to happen then I would not be able to afford to heat my home. So with all that said me and my wife are looking at geothermal heating and cooling systems with a vertical closed loop system. I have talked to some people that have that system and some like it and others hate it. So does anyone on this forum have a geothermal system? what type? location? would you recommend why or why not? Thanks

[theoldwizard1 2]

I have looked at it, but I have natural gas, forced air, so it is not cost effective.

My in-laws have a heat pump (non-geothermal) and their electric bill is MUCH lower than the neighbors combined propane-electric bill. They have a propane gas fireplace as a back up if there is an extended electrical outage. They haven't used it in 8 years, but it is still a good idea.

Cheap A/C also.

Look into heating your hot water with the heat pump also.

[KC9KAS 4,741]

Google DOUG RYE.You will find out all you need to know about energy effecient heating/cooling systems.

[Dresden Guy 24]

I too have forced air NATURAL gas and had inquired about geothermal. Two different HVAC installers with 20+ years each in the business, I spoke with, and both have geothermals and love it ........ I would guess from the economy standpoint as much as anything. A major consideration is the rather large area in your yard that is needed to bury the piping - I didn't have the room.

The best heating system I have seen is an outdoor wood furnace to heat water that is piped into the house and distributed throughout via an elaborate manifold system. This type of system can not always be used in an urban setting, but is the best combination from a standdpoint of cheapest to operate and the excellent heating of piped hot water that I have seen. The manifold system allowed precise zoning to eliminate areas not needing heated.

Just a thought.... ....

[mr.pipes 4]

The best heating system I have seen is an outdoor wood furnace to heat water that is piped into the house and distributed throughout via an elaborate manifold system. This type of system can not always be used in an urban setting, but is the best combination from a standdpoint of cheapest to operate and the excellent heating of piped hot water that I have seen. The manifold system allowed precise zoning to eliminate areas not needing heated.

Just a thought.... ....

I am a Plumber and do a lot of new construction. Over the years have seen some interesting set ups. Outdoor wood boilers can be cheap to operate if you have a good source for wood. It is however a good amount of work involved as far as cutting and stuffing it 3-5 times a day in the dead of winter. As mentioned they are not always welcome in suburban areas. Have you ever seen someone burning green wood on an overcast or rainy day. It smokes out the whole neighborhood.

I met a guy over the winter on a WH run who had just installed an indoor wood boiler. He had oil before and I believe his fuel costs were about 25% of what he spent with oil. Not quite as easy as oil but he was filling the boiler inside and not running outside before bed and first thing in the morning everyday.

When I learned about Geothermal from my college professor (Robert Goddards Daughter) I thought it was the greatest idea. I have only worked on two houses that had it and it was big money. Hopefully as we begin to realize the need for more renewable sources there will be developments to help reduce the cost.

[Fiscalyear 0]

WOW !! - this may be difficult to explain but I'm gonna give it a try.

My last home was very similar to my current home and I'm 'treating' them both the same. My current home is 2300 sq.ft. I have a heat pump. Four BR's two baths, Liv.rm., Lg. fam.rm. open kit/dining and utility (mud) rm. There is only myself and my wife living here with occasional grand kids and great grand kids visiting.

The first thing I do is install a programable thermostat. I sorta use the override feature on the thermostat as secondary temp control. Turn the (winter) temp down to around 55deg. near bedtime and bring back up to around 67deg at wake up time. If this seems a little cool - it is. So I keep an oil filled 120vac heater in my bedroom set at 64deg (good sleeping temp). To cheat a little on the coldest of nights I also have a mattress pad heater, used very little.

In the family room I use a second small 120vac heater and keep it set at 64deg. This supplements the family room and hall way where the main thermostat is located. I keep the vents closed in the unused bedrooms, WIC/dressing area and mud room. I know all of this sounds like a mixture of temperatures but that is exactly what it is. I only heat my main living areas to 67-69deg and with closed vents and reduced night time temps it works for me. Also if I leave home for most or all of a day I will override my thermostat down to 55deg and return temp up when returning home.

I have changed almost all of my lighting to flourescent and believe this helps a little. After a while you you get used to the "get brighter later" bulbs. I have added a water heater timer and it is turned on only 3 one hour intervals per day

My electric bill per month is less than any of my families that live near me. Summer time is controlled by two things, the programmable thermostat and vents and doors closed. Thanks for your time to read this. I hope it starts a thought process that you may adapt for your situation.

I know this is a little long winded but the idea is here - I hope! I'm sure there are small changes that can be supplemented with a small programmable 120vac heater in the right location. Oh, and did I mention, doors should remain closed on some parts of the house. Remember, Spring and Fall temps are like a freebie.

Sorry, I don't know anything about geothermal control.

Eddie

[6wheeler 586]

I too live out in the sticks and use propane. The price is getting out of control. My neighbor across the road put in a geothermal unit last year. I just talked to him on friday and asked if it helped. He said it made a difference but he doesn't know how much yet as the heating season isn't over yet. But, he is not sure it will because of his initial investment. It turned out to be alot higher than his original estimate because they ran into alot of problems on the install. They dicovered foundation issues on the house and thet raised his install from $12,500.00 to over $20,000.00. But as I told him the foundation would have needed repair anyway so you cannot figure that in. He said the system installation does fall under the gov't green rebate so that should help in the long run. Does anyone know if this would raise the value of the property? I wonder if it may have the same effect as say a swimming pool. I know the maintenance on a pool can be a down point on a sale, so if these units require extra maintenance that would also be an issue :thumbs:

[wh310-8 0]

Geothermal is a great way to go! The up front cost is higher then a conventional system,but the rewards are better in the the long run.The most important thing to these systems is having a proper installation!A good company will due a evaluation of the house for proper sizing of equipment,insulation,windows,and leak points of house.Then there is the choice of open loop or closed loop choice.Open loop usually would be using well water and dumping used water into a lake,stream,pond,or drainage ditch.Closed loop would be piping in the ground vertical or horizontal.

Geothermal should pay for its self in savings in 5 to 7 years.No 90 percent 2 stage furnace with a 2 stage heat pump can due this.Here in Indiana,the cost of a system like that is not much less then a geothermal system.You can go to WaterFurnace.com to learn more about geothermal systems.I have installed and worked on geo's for 20 years now and would recommend to anyone!I have been involved with installations all over the USA and heard nothing but praise from the people who installed these systems.Like I said before,the biggest thing is getting a company that has been doing them for years with a good track record.One thing I have seen is companies not wanting to do geothermal work will try to do it for cheap when all the rebates are motivating homeowners to have these systems installed.These usually causes alot of unhappy buyers.So,due your homework on the company you choose and due your homework on the equipment that they install! Waterfurnace is the brand I prefer.Climatemaster also has a good product on the market.Hope this helps alittle.

[jcb857 161]

Thank you for all the info. JEFF

[theoldwizard1 2]

A major consideration is the rather large area in your yard that is needed to bury the piping - I didn't have the room.

I thought most installations drilled straight down. 4-8" (?) well, say 100' deep. this give you 200' of piping. More than 1 well may be required.

[varosd 1,185]

my 2cents, My Brother in law in CT has an HVAC company, Geothermal Heat pumps are the way to go. new construction is the easiest and cheaper than re-model jobs. They can drill straight down(can get expensive) or if you have land..a horizontal field can be done...all of the moving parts are inside unlike a outside a/c compressor(no one to steal the copper or it to be covered in leaves/pine straw!) of course, even as it is the most efficent system..if the house has poor insulation, old windows etc. all that effiency is going out the door, plus on cold Winter days that go on and on...the cost of energy is still very high! I'm running propane too with electric oil portable heaters that work great!!

moving from NC to PA 2 yrs ago...we flipped the heating/AC costs. Summers were brutal down there!

[zieg72 209]

I have looked at it, but I have natural gas, forced air, so it is not cost effective.

My in-laws have a heat pump (non-geothermal) and their electric bill is MUCH lower than the neighbors combined propane-electric bill. They have a propane gas fireplace as a back up if there is an extended electrical outage. They haven't used it in 8 years, but it is still a good idea.

Cheap A/C also.

Look into heating your hot water with the heat pump also.

I have the same, however with electric rates going up I wish my backup was propane versus the electric backup when the heatpump isn't effective below 32 degrees. When I first had it installed it was 1/3 the price and would have paid for itself in 8 years. However it is still slightly less expensive than the old propane furnace and the summer AC is less expensive for sure. My $.02

[varosd 1,185]

if price wasnt a problem..I miss the old baseboard HOT water radiators, oil fuel boiler. I really hate blown hot air. How about that hot water or electric radiant floor heat? my brother in law bought a 80's house that has in in a great room with tall celings. It really keeps the feet warm.

[HorseFixer 2,012]

I am an HVAC contractor Licensed In the State of Michigan now for 29 years. I was a Carrier Dealer. The best money spent on energy is insulation and tightening up the structure, at that point after everything is pretty much complete then and only then can an HVAC professional do a manual J Heat load/loss calculation. All heat pumps are sized in the cooling mode. If a guy adds on another 400 sq ft then that blows the calculations out the window. Also Since it requires less BTU's normally for cooling than heating it may require that the structure will require supplemental heat. The mid united states region say Indy to Tenn the HVAC and Heating requirements may be close to the same, those areas can benefit highly from a heat pump. Heating BTU requirements are normally figured at 5 deg with a 70 to 72 deg indoor temp here in lower Michigan. So it all depends where you live, house orientation, many things are factored into the equation. The type of water you have is also a factor on the type of Clad heat exchanger that is to be used if you have a well type. A closed loop type is less critical but there are still water treatment issues that need to be addressed during installation. If you foul a heat exchanger from being an improper type for the situation then there goes your savings and Payback.

And one of the biggest factors in this decision is a persons age. If an elderly couple wants to install a new system the extra $8,000.00 Cost over a conventional furnace installation of say an extra $30.00 to $40.00 savings a month may never be realized. That $8000.00 will earn $400.00 per year interest. $40X12 = $480.00 So what $ 80.00 a year savings 8000.00 / 80 = 100 months / 12 = 8.33 But wait depending where you live you may only have 6 months of heating and the savings may not be all of that only a couple months and the payback may be as much as 20+ years! Maintenance well that can be expensive! Say the unit is out of warranty and you loose a compressor well there goes your savings all to hell.

Another thing to consider the older we get the warmer elderly people like it to stay comfortable. A heat pump throws out approx 98 or lower degree air vs a conventional furnace of say 120 deg. Many people don't like that because the air is cooler than their body temp. Just some things to consider :thumbs:

[Coadster32 793]

Well here's my take on it. When I got into the house I am in now, our natural gas company was running a deal on new furnaces. If you convert from oil to gas, the furnace is free. The free furnace is 83% efficient. I asked what they'd give me for credit if I upgraded to a 90% efficient unit. They said $600. (got-you!). I deliberated this problem, but the plumbing supply house said their hands were tied. I figured out the heat loss/gain calculations, (fun-fun if you've never done it before), and realized that it would take over 15years+ to re-coupe that savings. At that point I went out and bought a tankless hot-water heater, and thought the money could be better spent there. (my old furnace ran the hot-water out of the boiler jacket also).

I brought with me from my previous home, about 4 chords of split-seasoned firewood. I purchased a fireplace insert and ran a new SS liner up the flue. I then tapped into the return system on my central A/C unit and ran three 10" insulated (R-23 total) flex-pipes to the fireplace insert, through the ceiling. All done though the attic in a ranch stlye home. Currently, my wife stays at home with our two kids, and I rent out a 1/4 of the basement to my brother-in-law and his wife. We set all thermostats, (3 zones) at 65 with no set-backs. When the wife burns a fire, and circulates the air, we can get the house to 74 when it's 15 outside. The house rule is nobody touched the thermostat. We use the gas for heat, hot water, cooking, and drying our close. We are on a budget system, and pay $109 per month, or $1300 per year. I hear of people filling their oil tanks at $600+ a clip, multiple times during the winter, and that's just for heat! So far I have always gotten my firewood for free. Yes it's work, and you have to be "jonny-on-the-spot", but the savings seems worth it. I'd love to go geo-thermal, but the budget won't allow it right now. Later, it might also be too late, as Duke metioned.

[can whlvr 991]

i know many people with geothermal and all of them love it,dont forget that u get air conditioning much cheaper than normal and you can also preheat your hot water also which will help on bills too,i am on oil and i too cant afford it and if it goes up anymore which it will i dont know what i will do,wish i could afford geo,its about 20,000 for what i need