Top Tractor Challenge 2021 vids!

[slim67 2,734]

4 hours ago, jimkemp said:

After watching the video it makes me want to build one of these tractors and give it a try , A wheel horse of course !!!!!

I’m behind you all the way. The wheel horse factory team is growing!

[Snoopy11 5,713]

17 hours ago, Pullstart said:

@Snoopy11 you sponsor the engine… I’ll pilot my machine with it!

Hmm.... What horsepower range...?

 

I am calculating cost...

 

$150 for predator 212 if I pick one up from Harbor freight...

 

$65 for ARC billet rod...

 

$120 for ARC flywheel...

 

That's $335 so far.

 

35$ air filter with jets

 

35$ for exhaust header

 

Only other thing we would need is valve springs depending on how much music you want to make...

 

I am sure that I am forgetting something... (I always do...)

 

So, roughly 400$ - 450$ for a 212 base.

 

Considering that... some places out there charge over 800$ for a build like that... 400$ seems like a small token...

 

Then I have to ship the little hellion to Michigan. (probably around 50$ for shipping).

 

If you wanted to start with a 420... 440... or 457 base (like the engine on HellHorse)... just double/triple every price you see above....

 

I need to buy a lottery ticket...

 

Don

[slim67 2,734]

18 hours ago, Pullstart said:

@Snoopy11 you sponsor the engine… I’ll pilot my machine with it!

I love. This years entry from pullstart tables…..

[Maxwell-8 4,271]

16 hours ago, Snoopy11 said:

So, roughly 400$ - 450$ for a 212 base.

What HP and rpm we looking at?

 

I do believe most people run stock engines on these runs. 

Edited January 2, 2022 by Maxwell-8

[slim67 2,734]

1 hour ago, Maxwell-8 said:

What HP and rpm we looking at?

 

I do believe most people run stock engines on these runs. 

Most are low buck machines but it looks like some mods. Red can answer this question the best.

[Greentored 3,201]

Yep, most of these guys are running literally the bone stock engine that came on the machine, and amazingly they hold up quite well.

The big inch/big power builds are coming from engine heads like me who dont know how to leave anything alone haha, and the guys who want to 'bomb' big hills and run through nasty mud that requires a lot of power and tire speed to get through.

Andy from Ohio kicked a lot of tail with a 212 on an old Sears, it was piped and jetted only. Sean (Redzz02) took the same machine and dominated the King of Trimmers enduro this past year. 

My buddy 'Bare' has a similar setup on a Sears custom, and I cant keep up with him in the trails, but if we hit some big hills or nasty mud, that Briggs opposed will grunt right on through it.

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by Greentored

[Greentored 3,201]

On 12/31/2021 at 5:19 PM, Gregor said:

Curious about these billet rods. If I am understanding this right, billet rods are stronger than conventional rods and therefore do not break as easily. So if the rod doesn't break, what does?

@Snoopy11 hit the nail on the head. The benefit of having an automotive style bearing insert is probably more helpful than the strength of a billet. When these little engines are abused (or run low on oil) the big end of the rod gets hot due to lack of lube, the aluminum galls and welds itself to the crank, and thats what snaps the rod. That alone is the weak point nearly every time, on every small engine. Fix that issue, and these things are very hard to blow up.

You guys will have to check in in a couple months- I bought a 20.5hp (the big boy 46ci) pressure lube Briggs opposed vertical engine, and after months of searching, found a horizontal pressure lube side cover, oil pump and pan.

The search continued for a set of used billet rods, and I ended up scoring a set, plus a billet flywheel, STRONG factory 28ci Briggs single pistons (this was a trick I was not aware of) and a pretty healthy custom ground cam. This will be a 30hp, 7000rpm screaming oppy, and likely pretty much bomb proof.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Greentored

[Greentored 3,201]

On another note, I REALLY appreciate the open mindedness here!  All the off roaders do. To us it is similar to deer hunting- yes we hunt, but at the same time have the utmost love and respect for the animals as well. Doesn't make sense, but its truth.

[Gregor 4,838]

25 minutes ago, Greentored said:

The benefit of having an automotive style bearing insert is probably more helpful than the strength of a billet.

Even Lawn Boy uses needle bearings on both ends of the rod. I'm surprised that other manufacturers of larger engines don't, but I suppose there is a reason.

 

That being said, I have seen Lawn Boy engines with a broken rod.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Gregor

[Jeff-C175 7,198]

36 minutes ago, Greentored said:

I REALLY appreciate the open mindedness here!

 

Not sure there's really as much open mindedness as you think!

 

Rather, the ones that don't like what you guyz are doing are practicing "closed mouthedness" !  Which is a good thing too! 

[slim67 2,734]

1 hour ago, Greentored said:

Yep, most of these guys are running literally the bone stock engine that came on the machine, and amazingly they hold up quite well.

The big inch/big power builds are coming from engine heads like me who dont know how to leave anything alone haha, and the guys who want to 'bomb' big hills and run through nasty mud that requires a lot of power and tire speed to get through.

Andy from Ohio kicked a lot of tail with a 212 on an old Sears, it was piped and jetted only. Sean (Redzz02) took the same machine and dominated the King of Trimmers enduro this past year. 

My buddy 'Bare' has a similar setup on a Sears custom, and I cant keep up with him in the trails, but if we hit some big hills or nasty mud, that Briggs opposed will grunt right on through it.

 

I remember when Sean built the Vanguard on his tractor, it sounded great.

[Maxwell-8 4,271]

1 hour ago, Greentored said:

On another note, I REALLY appreciate the open mindedness here!  All the off roaders do. To us it is similar to deer hunting- yes we hunt, but at the same time have the utmost love and respect for the animals as well. Doesn't make sense, but its truth.

Let's face it, Horses are strong and up for the task.  Any you guys are not running the beauty or rare ones. Rusty is as rusted as it's gone get. Most of them were taken right from the scrapyard. 

 

Horses are plentiful in the US. If I would be doing this here in Belgium, with a rather scarcity of horses, that could be seen as a small crime.

[Snoopy11 5,713]

6 hours ago, Maxwell-8 said:

What HP and rpm we looking at?

 

I do believe most people run stock engines on these runs. 

Well... @Maxwell-8... you know I couldn't leave it alone... stock...

 

If I built the above engine, it would be somewhere in the realm of 25 horsepower, 7 thousand or more RPM...

 

Don

 

 

[Gregor 4,838]

Is this guy smokin' something, or is it possible?  100 HP?

 

[Snoopy11 5,713]

31 minutes ago, Gregor said:

Is this guy smokin' something, or is it possible?  100 HP?

It is definitely possible! Horsepower increases exponentially when you increase RPMs in these engines.

 

Therefore, you can take a 457cc engine... which makes 20 horsepower bone stock at 3,600 rpms. Double the RPM's, jet, tune, time, etc... pull over 7,500 rpm, and make 50+

 

The single issue I take with people who say that they make 100 horsepower... is, when I got educated on engines by ARC, they taught me that... to really make that kind of power, you need forced induction.

 

Now, I am not calling anyone a liar... but I am saying what I have learned in my experience from being taught by real engine builders. If my views are correct, knowing that the rules of those races exclude forced induction... I am cynical when it comes to those horsepower ratings...

 

You may have heard this... 'round here somewhere... but I make 51... no... let me say it right... mine DYNO tested at 51... and LOGICALLY can make that kind of power with the modifications I have done. 

 

Don

Edited January 2, 2022 by Snoopy11
typo

[Jeff-C175 7,198]

20 hours ago, Gregor said:

smokin' something

 

Tires?

 

Let's just say that I'm with Snoopy-Dawg... I'm HIGHLY DOUBTFUL at 100 HP.

 

 

Edited January 3, 2022 by Jeff-C175

[Greentored 3,201]

Fully agree on 100hp. Thats an awful lot of hp/ci ratio for something that started life as an industrial engine of sorts.

Redzz02's vanguard twin has a cam, rods, flywheel, ported, big carb, nice pipe, etc.... and figures hes making around 40. That is an absolutely insane amount of power on a sheetmetal frame mower.

He even runs a 'lawnmower' peerless 820 trans and makes it hold up!

 

[Greentored 3,201]

On 1/1/2022 at 12:37 PM, slim67 said:

I’m behind you all the way. The wheel horse factory team is growing!

A sharp eye will spot the "Wheel Horse offroad team" decals on my machine

[Gregor 4,838]

I think it would be a lot of fun to try, once. I seem to break easier than I use to, and it seems to take longer to get unbroken.

[Gregor 4,838]

On 12/28/2021 at 1:05 PM, slim67 said:

some sort of roll cage to protect the driver

A roll cage could certainly help protect the driver, but to build something strong enough to do any good, it would have to be heavy. Adding that to a tractor is going to raise the center of gravity substantially. You do that, you get more back flips and roll overs. Sounds like a Catch 22 situation. You win, you lose.

[slim67 2,734]

1 hour ago, Gregor said:

A roll cage could certainly help protect the driver, but to build something strong enough to do any good, it would have to be heavy. Adding that to a tractor is going to raise the center of gravity substantially. You do that, you get more back flips and roll overs. Sounds like a Catch 22 situation. You win, you lose.

Maybe have to sit lower in the tractor like a buggy!

[Maxwell-8 4,271]

1 hour ago, Gregor said:

A roll cage could certainly help protect the driver, but to build something strong enough to do any good, it would have to be heavy. Adding that to a tractor is going to raise the center of gravity substantially. You do that, you get more back flips and roll overs. Sounds like a Catch 22 situation. You win, you lose.

They are not making roll-cages on Quad's, and those machines are getting significantly heavier then they used too back in the day.

Off-roading in hIlly terrain will always be dangerous, on a tractor or an ATV.

2 hours ago, Greentored said:

'lawnmower' peerless 820 trans and makes it hold up!

He has a gocart axle in that tranny, still insane it holds up to Sean's extreem riding style. haha

[Lee1977 6,329]

4 hours ago, Greentored said:

Fully agree on 100hp. Thats an awful lot of hp/ci ratio for something that started life as an industrial engine of sorts.

Redzz02's vanguard twin has a cam, rods, flywheel, ported, big carb, nice pipe, etc.... and figures hes making around 40. That is an absolutely insane amount of power on a sheetmetal frame mower.

He even runs a 'lawnmower' peerless 820 trans and makes it hold up!

 

If running a Vanguard you need to mount it with a solid steel plate under it. The aluminum block won't take the twisting of the frame with out breaking. 

I have a 3/8" plate under the vanguard on my C-120/180 .  I would not trust anything less then a 1/4" steel plate. 

[Snoopy11 5,713]

6 hours ago, Greentored said:

Fully agree on 100hp. Thats an awful lot of hp/ci ratio for something that started life as an industrial engine of sorts.

Redzz02's vanguard twin has a cam, rods, flywheel, ported, big carb, nice pipe, etc.... and figures hes making around 40. That is an absolutely insane amount of power on a sheetmetal frame mower.

He even runs a 'lawnmower' peerless 820 trans and makes it hold up!

 

You know what is odd, and what I have previously discussed with some engine guys... many v-twins' rotating assembly is considerably smaller than a rotating assembly such as a 457.

 

In my humble opinion from what I have seen, size-wise, many v-twin engines are like 2... 212 bases put together.

 

Now, if more manufacturers used the same size rotating assembly for their v-twins that they use in the 457... then those v-twins would start out at 40 horsepower, and could be exponentially increased from there. (a governor removal, and some mild modifications, you could make 60-80 easily).

 

For instance, if someone started with a Kohler CV1000 base, which is somewhere in the 999cc realm... very high horsepower levels could be achieved... just because the size of the engine is proportional in comparison to horsepower levels that can be achieved at the 440/457 level.

 

HOWEVER... even with the CV1000, you would still need forced induction to really achieve 100 hp, in my opinion.

 

Don

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Snoopy11 5,713]

23 hours ago, Gregor said:

smokin' something

 

21 hours ago, Jeff-C175 said:

HIGH

 

Don