C-125 snow blade mods for easier lifting

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

7 hours ago, Gregor said:

Sorry if I have sort-a hijacked your thread

 

Not a problem at all Greg!  My threads like to take on a mind of their own but it's not really my thread at all!  And you're right, it's all about the same thing, but in all fairness, it was @tractorbeast that started this!

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

19 hours ago, Gregor said:

I have ordered a winch, a relay, some switches, I gotta plan.    

 

Can't wait to see where this goes!  

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

17 hours ago, Snoopy11 said:

See this here:

 

 

Don

 

Truth be told Don, if I could afford a Kubota and the attachments, I might perform a Wheel Horse Sacrilege !

And let he who has never had the same thoughts cast the first stone !

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

15 hours ago, Handy Don said:

 70" and the other 

 

I re-measured accurately but have not re-weighed yet.

 

From the axle pivot to the first cross beam where the tractor lift connects is 23"

To the next cross beam where I weighed is 42"

The total length from the bottom edge of the blade to the axle pivot is 69"

 

This brings the numbers closer.  Now I should re-weigh the two points more accurately.  Parallax is a *****!

 

The other thing that may have thrown off the weighing was the distance of the blade to the floor.  With the bathroom scale under the blade, it's about an inch and a half from the floor.  When I put the shims under the scale for the other two points the blade was a bit closer to the floor.  This would definitely affect the "WITH spring" weights.  Not sure if it would affect the WITHOUT spring weights much though.

 

BUT... I still have a very good idea of what I might need in the way of lifting force if I decide to use a linear actuator.

 

[Handy Don 13,972]

25 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

This brings the numbers closer.  Now I should re-weigh the two points more accurately.  Parallax is a *****!

The other thing that may have thrown off the weighing was the distance of the blade to the floor. 

Yes, with the revised measurements, the numbers are much closer. Whew!

At the angles you've got, the differences in forces will be very, very small so I wouldn't sweat the parallax. 

As you say, knowing which range of actuator for capacity and length is all you needed,

 

You might want to think of stronger actuator with shorter throw and a lever to "speed up" the lift, roughly like the diagram below.

80lb blade plus another 20-40 lbs (hey, don't have to lift it right?) at a 2x lever mean an actuator of 300 or so lb capacity. And the lift will be twice as fast.

Or go triple!

[Gregor 4,847]

19 hours ago, Gregor said:

Guess I could. Not much chance of it bending backwards though, and if both sides are required, I don't think point "A" has a chance.

I got to thinking about this. Whether point A was going to be a weak spot or not. Sometimes you have to put things into perspective. I said this unit weighs 150#.

 

19 hours ago, Gregor said:

I think I could extend the angle iron out 2' beyond the tractor, stand on it with me being 165# and have no danger of bending 2 pieces of 1 1/2' X 1/4" angle. I will not need anything near that long. Between @Jeff-C175 and myself, we ought a come up with something that works, I hope.

[Gregor 4,847]

A crude drawing, but you get the idea.  This was the first mock up, minus the winch, I don't have it yet. After some R&D, Some serious thinking, trial and error, it's not quite like this anymore. Hope to have the winch, relay and switches today. As it sits right now, I can get the entire unit off the ground. All of the weight hanging on the front of the tractor. It still turns pretty easy, but the tractor only has 4"  wide tires on the front.

 

[Oldskool 6,663]

I have a tractor dedicated for yard use. (no deck). I had thought of mounting a winch on the back to lift rear mounted impliments. In the same thought maybe mount some fareleads like this so the cable could be run underneath/forward to lift impliments on front. Such as a snowblower or plow.

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

1 hour ago, Oldskool said:

I have a tractor dedicated for yard use. (no deck). I had thought of mounting a winch on the back to lift rear mounted impliments. In the same thought maybe mount some fareleads like this so the cable could be run underneath/forward to lift impliments on front. Such as a snowblower or plow.

 

Ya know what?  Just running the cable up to the front and connecting it to the stock lift handle by means of a few pulleys would lighten the lift considerably!  That might be something to consider as well rather than getting into the motorized lift idea.

 

Although, I'm still keen on the idea of a stomp button so I don't have to take hand off the wheel to lift the blade.

 

Maybe I could rig up the cable first, then add the motorizer later............

 

 

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

So, going with @Oldskool 's idea;

 

I think the first would give an X 3 mechanical advantage since there are 3 cables lifting?  So if at that lift point by the tach-a-matic I had say 100 pounds, does that mean that the handle would only 'feel like' 33 pounds?

Or, is that only a X 2 advantage?

 

And in the second example, eliminating one pulley and attaching the cable at the tach-a-matic, would that give me a X 2 mechanical advantage?  or is that just X 1 ?

 

Regardless of any mechanical advantage, the fact that it's being lifted further forward will make it easier to lift.

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[Handy Don 13,972]

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

14 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

 

That's not going to work then.  I forgot that with mechanical advantage comes a limit to the range.  Shucks.  

 

I need to lift the front 4" which means I would need 8" of lift lever travel and that ain't possible.

[Handy Don 13,972]

14 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

Shucks

For sure. That's what was behind the actuator with the amplifying lever in my (crude) example. Acutator moves 2" to get 4" of lift.

 

You can get the same effect with pulleys by connecting the actutator to the pulley instead of the cable (like pulling on the block of a block and tackle instead of the rope). Fork lifts use something like this but with chain.

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

On 12/20/2021 at 4:45 AM, Gregor said:

Between @Jeff-C175 and myself

 

Between ALL of us Greg!  I've been ponderin' on my sitcheeation and not really on yours, sorry!

 

I'm pretty certain that your second gusset position would be stronger.  In the first, the forces would be acting to pull the welds apart, in the second, they would be compressive forces pushing the thing together.

 

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

On 12/19/2021 at 3:14 PM, Handy Don said:

like the diagram below.

 

Yes, so far this looks like the most likely candidate for success with a linear actuator.  

 

Adding a few holes for adjustability:

 

 

But there's always the option of a hydraulic cylinder there, and an electric / hydraulic pump!

 

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[Handy Don 13,972]

2 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

Between ALL of us Greg!  I've been ponderin' on my sitcheeation and not really on yours, sorry!

 

I'm pretty certain that your second gusset position would be stronger.  In the first, the forces would be acting to pull the welds apart, in the second, they would be compressive forces pushing the thing together.

 

Six of one, half-dozen of the other, assuming the welds have good penetration. I'd go with the first to avoid the projection of the horizontal member past the upright.

What I'm not understanding from this diagram is how the winch is centered. Are the upright angle iron's tilted toward the center?

 

The lifting force will be trying to bend the horizontal bar(s?) at the point where the right-most bolt goes to the tractor frame. With only the load of a blade/frame, and the beefy angle iron, not a real worry.

[Handy Don 13,972]

8 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

Yes, so far this looks like the most likely candidate for success with a linear actuator.  

 

Adding a few holes for adjustability:

 

 

But there's always the option of a hydraulic cylinder there, and an electric / hydraulic pump!

Agreed on all of those options, and the added holes are an excellent touch!

In my mind, the link between the plow frame and the actuator lever is a chain or cable or, if solid, is slotted as is the link on the 2-stage blower. That lessens/eliminates the chances of an impact on the blade driving against the actuator and breaking it. If more "dig" down pressure is needed, add weight to the plow.

One advantage of linear over hydraulic is they have equal force in both directions. Orienting "piston down" lets gravity help keep the piston clean--less buildup at the cylinder-to-piston seal.

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

12 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

the link between the plow frame and the actuator lever is a chain or cable

 

Yes, the highlighted link.  Flexible.

 

And enough clearance between the end of the arm and the blade to prevent striking it in the event of a 'mishap'.

 

 

Now to get back to thinking about the switching logic for the 'one pushbutton' idea!  It's a bit more complicated than I originally thought.  Reversing is easy.  AUTOMATICALLY reversing with one button, not so much!  Might need to use latching relays.  Maybe I'll dissect a garage door opener to see how they do it.  

 

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[ebinmaine 72,379]

Now that all you guys have mentally engineered this, see if you can figure out a way to use a linear actuator as a power angle for the plow without damaging the actuator...

I know the general manner of thinking is that it can't be done.

Is there a way to isolate it somehow?

 

 

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

5 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

the general manner of thinking is that it can't be done.

 

Anything is possible!  

[Handy Don 13,972]

1 hour ago, Jeff-C175 said:

Maybe I'll dissect a garage door opener to see how they do it.

Good luck on this. The one I have now is solid state. I think it counts revolutions of the motor and also senses pressure via motor current draw. Two little dials to adjust start and end position and a third to adjust sensitivity for reversing. Was a piece of cake to dial it in when I installed it!

 

1 hour ago, ebinmaine said:

linear actuator as a power angle for the plow without damaging the actuator...

 

No ideas if you want continuous angle selection. If you were ok with the 5 mechanically locked positions it would be possible to add a mechanical lock release (a relay to pull it open). Unlock the blade then move it with an actuator then let a spring re-lock the angle. Have the power to the actuator (in either direction) simultaneously activate the relay so that moving the actuator always pulls open the lock but time it to de-power the relay so it'd drop the lock in at the right position--tricky stuff. I found one solenoid that can exert 9 oz of force over .75" using ~85 watts (about 7 amps) and that was $50 and I expect it'd take at least 2-3 pounds of pull, and correspondingly more watts, to work reliably under pressure from the blade.

Also looked for a worm gear box, 12v, reversible with the oomph to turn a blade--no luck.

 

No accident that Fisher used two single-acting hydro cylinders to do this on their commercial stuff.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Handy Don

[Oldskool 6,663]

2 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

Now that all you guys have mentally engineered this, see if you can figure out a way to use a linear actuator as a power angle for the plow without damaging the actuator...

I know the general manner of thinking is that it can't be done.

Is there a way to isolate it somehow?

 

 

Could there be a rachet action be added somewhere to it with a finger trigger for a cable release?

[ebinmaine 72,379]

9 minutes ago, Oldskool said:

Could there be a rachet action be added somewhere to it with a finger trigger for a cable release?

Can you elaborate on that a little? Possibly with poor nearly indistinguishable drawings?

[Oldskool 6,663]

25 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

Can you elaborate on that a little? Possibly with poor nearly indistinguishable drawings?

Well actually doesn't the plow have locking positions? If so run a cable to the lock from like a bicycle brake lever?

[ebinmaine 72,379]

8 minutes ago, Oldskool said:

Well actually doesn't the plow have locking positions? If so run a cable to the lock from like a bicycle brake lever?

It does, yes. 

 

It currently has a solid cable as WH OE was made. 

I've been wanting to make both our plows flex cables as you mention. 

 

My thought was to leave the plow direction handle and the existing lever and hard bolt it in place. 

 

When one uses a linear actuator to move something doesn't the actuator stop with pressure either one way or the other?

If so then wouldn't being locked still have minimal to no effect on protecting the actuator?

 

So that gets the lock undone and relocked. 

But what about the potential damage to the actuator?