Toro Wheel Horse 416-8 starting issues.

[Schoenherr87 3]

Hello everyone, I apologize ahead if my issue exist somewhere on this site or somewhere else on the great web. I have been searching for what seems high and low online. Here's my issue, I have a Toro Wheel Horse 416-8 Onan motor (p216G-I/109760). I had to change the fuse box in it earlier because my fuses were lose. And after I had replaced the box the tractor worked just fine started no problem, and I changed the oil after I used the tractor. After sitting for a week in my garage I went to fire it up to do some more work and the tractor wouldn't start. First thing I did was check all my fuses and all are good. Made sure the ground wire contacts were clean (which are) my next step I went to was checking the starter, mainly I could hear clicks when I turn my key.

 

Tested the solenoid and starter at an old ACE hardware shop in my area that test all starters. I was told it was bad. I went online got a new starter and solenoid and installed still same issue. Next thing I did was had my battery have a load test and the battery is fine. After that I took a voltmeter to the leads of the solenoid to see and make for sure I have power going to the solenoid. Which my voltmeter said I had 12.6v going to it. Makes me think I have no problem with power to it. My dad told me I can see if the new solenoid is bad by putting a wire between the two leads, which should bypass every safety switch and what not. I did that and the starter fired up and made one crank on the flywheel and stopped. When the flywheel stopped, all I could hear is the starter just running. When I had re-tried the jumping the solenoid the starter would run but not engage the flywheel. I am kinda at a lost where to troubleshoot next. If anyone could point me in the right direction where to go would be much appreciated. And thank you in advance.

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,274]

Welcome to the forum.

 

If the starter is getting weak voltage they will often do that. The starter drive gear needs to jump into action to engage the flywheel and it may not be turning fast enough to throw the gear out. I believe your solenoid also advances the starter gear into the flywheel so don't know how that is affected. Using a jumper sometimes results in low voltage  because of the minimal jumper contacts.

Here is a diagram for just the starter so you can check it out.

Garry

[953 nut 58,223]

20 minutes ago, gwest_ca said:

If the starter is getting weak voltage they will often do that.

If you connect a large jumper cable from the starter to the batter+ the starter should spin up properly. The starter Bendix drive may need a little TLC. Do not use oil on it, use dry graphite lubricant.

If any battery cable including the link from the solenoid to the starter is bad it will drop voltage received by the starter. Be sure the ground cable from the battery to the engine is good too. 

[wallfish 17,575]

to RedSquare!

Weak battery, bad or corroded connection, bad or corroded wire since you already changed the starter and solenoid.

My guess is you may have a problem with something draining the battery from the fuse box rewire. If it will start using jumper cables from your car or a known good and charged battery, then the battery in there is weak and or being drained from something.

 

[Schoenherr87 3]

Thanks for all the replies. I will try the jumper cable (like from a car) though later today after i take care of other things. And I'm going to take my dads battery from his tractor and see how that goes.  I will give update on what i found/discover.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Schoenherr87

[clueless 3,126]

When you try to start it move the PTO lever back and forth, see if that makes the starter jump. I had almost the exact same problem on my 416-8, sometimes it would start, sometimes nothing, sometimes starter would spin slow but not engage. I ended up taking it to my dealer, they fixed it. When I picked it up the tech told me it was not get any power to the starter sometimes, are not enough power sometimes to engage the starter. He traced it back to the PTO safety switch, found the spring behind the dash that holds the PTO lever tight when off was not connected, so when in the off position sometimes there was power, no power, or not enough.

[Schoenherr87 3]

Thanks clueless for that thought, I haven't tried any of the other previous thoughts yet. due to the holiday shopping and parties and what not. Along with my water heater going out had to take care of those first before my tractor. But I have the next few days off from work, and should be able to work on it some more and give an update.

[The Tuul Crib 7,338]

to 

[Schoenherr87 3]

As an update to everyone. I am still not having the tractor starting. Yesterday my dad came over to help try to figure out. I should mention that the seat safety switch is bypassed from the previous owner and my dad confirmed it all works far as that goes. I put a new battery in the tractor to see if that made any difference, which it still wouldn't start. We took jumper cables running from the + lead to the + terminal on the solenoid and nothing. My dad jumped the two leads on the starter solenoid and the machine fired along with the flywheel engaging. So we now have 100% strong enough power to engage the flywheel. The next step we took was to look for the switch for the clutch, even though I had no lights on my tractor saying the clutch wasn't engaged we still checked it. My dad jumped the wires going up to the that switch and still no start. We moved on and checked the parking break just to rule that one out and that checks out fine.

 

From there my dad was playing with the key and clutch doing one of my dads thought process and the tractor fired up. Which would have made us feel real silly if it was just the darn ignition switch. Well my dad one of his spare ignition switch from him place before he came over (he saves a lot of that stuff) but anyway replaced it and tractor wouldn't fire. We tested the PTO switch and the ohm meter is coming with good continuity. Went to listen/feel the relay fuses under my battery, now the one side closest to the PTO will click and I can feel it every time the key tries to engage. And the relay on the other side under my battery closest to the clutch doesn't click nor can you feel the click. From what I looked up (correct if wrong) the relay by the PTO is the starter, and the relay by the clutch is for the seat switch. I should only be more concerned with the starter relay than the seat switch relay right?

 

From here my Dad and I figured its possible down to two items. The voltage regulator (which have no idea how to test) and the ignition coil. Now I cant remember where I found the information before, but I know there is way to test the ignition coil  with a multi-meter by connecting the two leads and seeing if it reads 2.9-3.60 ohms, which we hooked ours up and read -3.22. Not sure if the (-) means anything. However my dad and I noticed the ignition coil was getting hotter. Not so hot you can't touch it, but clear indication it being warm especially when its doing nothing but sitting in a cold garage.

 

At this point this is where I am at on my tractor. I am unsure if we are heading in the right direction and hopefully narrowing it down to possible electrical stuff that is preventing it to work. Now I will make a notation that of course when turning the key to start position the engine oil light still flashes. So I am unaware if that poses any issues or more less indicate any issues. I get that it will flash normally but should stop when running, along with not start if senses no oil in the machine. Which there is brand new oil in the machine. I changed it two days before it stopped working.

 

Any ideas that would be helpful. And once again Thanks in Advance.

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,274]

Are you trying to get the starter to work?

or

The starter works but the engine will not run?

They are two different issues and you need starter first and ignition 2nd.

 

Voltage regulator has nothing to do with either start or run.

Oil light has nothing to do with start or run - controls the hour meter.

 

Ignition switch, one of the pto switches, neutral transmission switch or clutch pedal switch on an 8-speed plus the start relay should deliver battery voltage to the light blue wire at the starter solenoid and starter engages with key in START position.

 

Ignition switch, the other pto switch , seat switch plus the ignition relay should deliver battery voltage to the yellow wire at the ignition coil with the key in both the START and RUN positions.

 

The spark circuit diagram may show the wrong type of ignition using points. Power to the coil is the same but the condenser should be shown connected to the yellow wire if it has electronic ignition.

If someone can confirm my thoughts I will make corrections to the Spark Circuit diagram.

 

Where are you at now?

 

Garry

 

Added modified drawings of each circuit to show how they work.

 

[Schoenherr87 3]

I am trying to get the engine to run. Jumping the solenoid on the starter will engage the flywheel and try to start. But when I try to start the tractor normally nothing happens. I guess that is where I sit at this current moment where to go in troubleshooting.

starter works, I am just having ignition issues

 

Edited December 29, 2019 by Schoenherr87

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,274]

If you have to jump the starter to get the motor to turn over fix it so the key will turn the motor over in the START position first.

There is a real good chance when you get that working the ignition will also be fixed.

 

Garry

[clueless 3,126]

[lynnmor 7,613]

42 minutes ago, Schoenherr87 said:

I am trying to get the engine to run. Jumping the solenoid on the starter will engage the flywheel and try to start. But when I try to start the tractor normally nothing happens. I guess that is where I sit at this current moment where to go in troubleshooting.

starter works, I am just having ignition issues

 

You really keep mixing the issues.  Get the starter to run when the key is turned to the start position.  Use the diagram above and jump over the various relays, fuses and switches.

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,274]

All you have told us is you have an Onan engine. If you have the tractor model number and serial number which is likely under the left side of the seat that would help us help you. Gets us all on the same correct page.

 

This is what the ignition switch looks like with the terminals identified. Make sure they match what you have. The difference in switches is the terminal locations. Click on the picture for more.

Garry

[Schoenherr87 3]

The Ignition switch is the same that I replaced far as the leads and what not. I do not have an electronic ignition switch that was mention before, at least not from what I have seen. My model: 73420 The serial is: 3900751. I am gonna test that blue wire to make for sure i am getting the power through that along with that neutral switch on the transmission and see from there.

[Schoenherr87 3]

So an update here everyone. I think i figured the issue. The light blue wire going to the starter solenoid is having some form of an issue. I was able to jump the positive lead to that switch and the engine rolled over of course not firing. So I went ahead and tested the continuity of the wire that goes from the starter up into that mesh to the first wiring harness where they can disconnect. And the wire is good, no breaks. I am not seeing any continuity from the blue wiring coming from the fuses even with the key switch on or in its start. Not sure if I am doing something wrong there?

If anyone can help me to let me know what color wiring is from the key switch to that fuse box would most likely be would be helpful I think. I'm sure I need to see if I am getting power up to the fuses for that starter wire from the key switch. From what I could see from diagrams it looks like its a red wire from the key switch up to the fuses than transfers to a white then the blue to the starter. If someone confirms I am correct with that would be nice to know. 

 

In the end I am pretty sure I am on the right track on figuring this problem.

 

Thanks in an Advance.

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,274]

18 hours ago, Schoenherr87 said:

From what I could see from diagrams it looks like its a red wire from the key switch up to the fuses than transfers to a white then the blue to the starter. If someone confirms I am correct with that would be nice to know. 

 

In the end I am pretty sure I am on the right track on figuring this problem.

 

Thanks in an Advance.

According to the diagrams you have the colors correct.

Sometimes UV light bleeds some of the color out of the wire insulation effectively changing the color of what is left.

 

Garry

[Schoenherr87 3]

Found issue. I was having a short in my white wiring during the conversion part. now everything works. Learned alot with this tractor more than I original thought I knew though.... Thanks for the guides.