RJR49 138 #1 Posted November 27, 2019 I put a Chinese Carb on my C-160 (K-341) last year and I couldn't believe how fast the motor started. Then the frame broke. It took a few weeks but when I finally got it back together the it was really hard to start. It won't start at all without fluid if its cold. Nothing was changed or altered. It had just sat on the garage floor for a few weeks. I swapped the carb back to the rebuilt Kohler but that didn't help. I'm thinking that maybe the fuel pump is the problem. I noticed that there was gas around the fitting, but I'm not sure that didn't come from the carb swap. Sitting on its side so long may have damaged the diaphragm but that's just a WAG. When I looked up pumps I saw electric fuel pumps. Does anyone have any advise on switching to electric? I'm thinking that electric would give a more consistent fuel flow and, perhaps, be more reliable. As I'm writing this I'm thinking that the points may have gotten contaminated from the motor sitting on it's side. I'll have to check that out. Any other thoughts and prayers would be appreciated. Happy Thanksgiving Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ebinmaine 73,015 #2 Posted November 27, 2019 There's been quite a few of us that have used those Chinese carbs and had good luck with them. I am NOT one of them. I bought one and it ran great but I had to clean it out 3 times in just a short time so I removed it and got an original Kohler carb. Rebuilt that and I've been fine since. I do have I'll c-160 with a k341 and it's the only one in our fleet that is hard to start. When I first got mine back up and running after it had been quiet for several months during the restoration I had to put my palm over the throat of the carburetor to get it to suck fuel hard enough. And that was even after priming the lines manually. What I learned in the following couple of days is that Kohler fuel pumps are not very good at sucking a dryline all the way from the tank. There are rebuild kits available for your Kohler fuel pump from a company in Massachusetts called Then And Now Automotive. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pullstart 67,083 #3 Posted November 27, 2019 It would very much be a great idea to clean up the points to verify spark is strong, but you said it’ll fire up on spray. Try pressurizing the fuel tank (SLIGHTLY) with an air nozzle blowing through your hand and a rag... it might help push some fuel to the pump for the time being... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RJR49 138 #4 Posted November 27, 2019 Pullstart Thank you for the tip. One thing that puzzles me is that it runs great once it starts. As I said the only thing I did to it was let it lay on it's side for a few weeks. So, I've been think that the problem is fuel related but maybe not. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ebinmaine 73,015 #5 Posted November 27, 2019 Is it hard to start if you shut it off and attempt within just a few minutes? Also, do you have fuel line that you can see through? Also, when was the last time your fuel line was changed and do you use ethanol fuel? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RJR49 138 #6 Posted November 27, 2019 Is it hard to start if you shut it off and attempt within just a few minutes? Not as hard but nowhere near as quick as it did before. Another puzzle is that I hit the starter for, 3 - 4 seconds and it doesn't start until the starter quits cranking? Also, do you have fuel line that you can see through? No, it's SAE rated 3/8" fuel line Also, when was the last time your fuel line was changed and do you use ethanol fuel Last year and yes to ethanol. I thought about switching to 100LL from the airport but the general consensus was that 100 octane was too much for these motors. It probably wouldn't hurt to change the filter either but what has me scratching my head is why? I didn't do anything but dismount and remount the motor! As an aside it's amazing how much space these tractors take up when you take them apart. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pacer 3,177 #7 Posted November 27, 2019 15 minutes ago, RJR49 said: the starter for, 3 - 4 seconds and it doesn't start until the starter quits cranking? Now that statement to me sounds like a good clue to the spark being weak. The starter is pulling a lot of amps and with a weakened ignition it could sap some of the 'juice' from the spark and when released would throw that extra 'boost' to the spark letting it start. Do a thorough ck on your ign system, especially points, condenser, coil and connections. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ebinmaine 73,015 #8 Posted November 27, 2019 9 minutes ago, RJR49 said: doesn't start until the starter quits cranking? that might add to the puzzle. Have you done electrical tests to verify that you're getting spark while you're cranking? 9 minutes ago, RJR49 said: 100LL from the airport but the general consensus was that 100 octane was too much for these motors I'm not sure where you're getting that information but it's simply not correct. Adding more octane certainly does no harm. In fact, it burns a little cooler. There is a very widespread misconception that because an octane rating is higher it makes the gasoline better or cleaner or hotter or for race only applications. Necessary? Absolutely not. But too much for them... No, not at all. I'm sure you're well aware that ethanol is NOT your friend. If you have to burn 100LL to get the ethanol out of your system I would highly advise it. Whereas your fuel system is only a year old it's unlikely that ethanol has done any damage but I have seen it. IT IS POSSIBLE to render a rubber fuel line useless in One year. 33 minutes ago, RJR49 said: what has me scratching my head is why? I didn't do anything but dismount and remount the motor I definitely understand your confusion there but it may have absolutely nothing to do with you moving the motor around. it could be a coincidence. It could be from sitting, literally. Could be any number of things. I'm with Pacer above ... you should do a concise metered test on your ignition system. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RJR49 138 #9 Posted November 27, 2019 I can't tell you how many carburetors I've rebuilt because of Ethanol. especially bad in old boats when they first started putting it in gas. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stepney 2,354 #10 Posted November 27, 2019 I would tend to agree the Kohler pump can be hard to prime sometimes. If this were a C161/5 I would advise the electric pump if the machine sat a lot.. but this is a C160, tank under the hood, no? Once the tap is open that pump should be automatically primed, it's under the level of the tank. In fact I'd band-aided a few with dash mount tanks and bypassed the pump to get a job done. You took the engine off? Did the fuel line come with it or was it removed? I'll bet anything just a little dirt got in somewhere if you took the line off. I also saw about the engine firing after the starter is released. A poor connection will give weak spark when cranking, or the switch itself. I've had that happen too. Had a 'restored' charger 12 that ONLY started when the key was let go. Again with the faulty switch. I suggest making sure the tank is full, and hook a wire from the battery + right to the coil, then try and start it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pfrederi 18,718 #11 Posted November 27, 2019 Weak /no spark during cranking....but runs OK once she is running.... you have had a lot of cranking going on lately with it being hard to start...maybe the battery is getting weak, cranking drops the voltage so much the spark is weak.... If you have a load tester check the battery, no load test put yoor multimeter on it and observe voltage while cranking...less than 9 volts a weak tired battery may be a problem. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bds1984 1,500 #12 Posted November 28, 2019 11 hours ago, ebinmaine said: There's been quite a few of us that have used those Chinese carbs and had good luck with them. I am NOT one of them. I bought one and it ran great but I had to clean it out 3 times in just a short time so I removed it and got an original Kohler carb. Rebuilt that and I've been fine since. I do have I'll c-160 with a k341 and it's the only one in our fleet that is hard to start. When I first got mine back up and running after it had been quiet for several months during the restoration I had to put my palm over the throat of the carburetor to get it to suck fuel hard enough. And that was even after priming the lines manually. What I learned in the following couple of days is that Kohler fuel pumps are not very good at sucking a dryline all the way from the tank. There are rebuild kits available for your Kohler fuel pump from a company in Massachusetts called Then And Now Automotive. It is funny you say that Eric. I have used four of the Chinese carburetors with little/no issue. The first carb I used on my C165 back in late 2014. Upon arrival and opening the box, I could just smell Harbor Freight coming from the package; that is the wonderful cosmoline/perto-chemical that I am convinced that China smells like. The first course of action for me was to take apart and inspect the carb where I found a greasy substance that resembled rubber cement. Once I cleaned the carburetor out with carb cleaner and installed it on my K341, I have had zero issues. Every Chinese carb I have ordered since then I have taken apart to discover the same crud and promptly cleaned it out. With regards to the OP, perhaps there were many factors on the fringe of failure that were amplified while sitting at an abnormal angle or just pure coincidence. I guess I would check out the fuel pump and manually operate it by removing it with lines still attached from the pump to the filter/tank to see if it draws fuel. Perhaps sitting at a funky angle has caused a very minute fuel leak to manifest enough to cause an air leak. I bought a 312-8 this summer that would run perfectly on starting fluid but failed otherwise. I got it to run long enough on starting fluid to where the pump could draw/pump enough fuel only to find a leak on the pressurized side. A quick replacement of the fuel line and filter and I never looked back. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RJR49 138 #13 Posted November 29, 2019 On 11/27/2019 at 4:37 PM, Stepney said: Hook a wire from the battery + right to the coil, then try and start it. Stepney Your a genius! Fired right up! Can't thank you enough for the suggestion. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stepney 2,354 #14 Posted November 29, 2019 Be it coincidence or luck that it fired up, I'd just check all the wires for voltage drop, and all the grounds. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ebinmaine 73,015 #15 Posted November 29, 2019 5 minutes ago, RJR49 said: Stepney Your a genius! Fired right up! Can't thank you enough for the suggestion. That gives you a little more evidence that your ignition switch is questionable... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stepney 2,354 #16 Posted November 29, 2019 3 minutes ago, ebinmaine said: That gives you a little more evidence that your ignition switch is questionable... I agree. Strange things like that happen now and then. The 516, Charger 12, and others all did that but usually gave warnings before quitting.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RJR49 138 #17 Posted November 30, 2019 You're all right. I tried cleaning the contacts to no avail. I bought a new switch and also replaced the fuel line and filter. Didn't have time to put it all back together but I better hurry. Snow is on the way Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RJR49 138 #18 Posted November 30, 2019 Did check the voltage drop. At the coil it went to zero Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
953 nut 60,377 #19 Posted November 30, 2019 Any connection at any point between the battery and the ignition coil that is not clean and tight could be the cause of the voltage drop. Only takes one bad connection to ruin your day. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob R 977 #20 Posted November 30, 2019 Sure sounds to me that your problem is fuel bleed down after she sits for a while, strongly suggest you go on ebay buy a 6mm marine style in line hand pump. will take you ten minutes to put it in pretty sure this will solve your problem. Did this with two of mine one of the best things I have ever done....! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RJR49 138 #21 Posted December 1, 2019 It's all back together and running like it was new. But now I'm baffled more than ever. I was planning on moving the wires from the old switch to the new one at a time. Napa needed to see the old one so you know I didn't get it right despite labeling the wires. NOt so much of a problem but with the switch wired incorrectly I couldn't jump the starter? Direct connection from battery + ro starter and battery - to ground didnt even produce a spark. The battery is fine. I assumed the switch was wired incorrectly and corrected that but I was surprised when it fired up. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
953 nut 60,377 #22 Posted December 2, 2019 12 hours ago, RJR49 said: back together and running like it was new Glad to hear of your success. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites