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ih rock

c-175 won't crank

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ih rock

hi guys,i am new to this forum,i bought a c-175 with a snow blower and 42" mower,it only turned over when I bought it, but never had spark,so after a little trial and error,and friendly advise I replaced spark plugs,coil,cylenoid,battery,points and condenser,and IT STILL WON'T CRANK.               I also tested the starter to make sure it wasn't that,by putting a wire on the starter port to the battery and it worked great,the only way to get it to crank is to put a screwdriver on both ports of the cylenoid even with the new ones,i have checked every wire,every ground and every swich,i was also wandering how much its worth,because I plan on selling it i would really appreciate any and all help

Edited by ih rock

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953 nut

:WRS:

Before you spend an more money replacing parts do a step by step analysis of what works and what needs help.

Is the PTO lever pulled back toward the operator?

With the key on do do you have 12 volts on the "+" terminal of the coil?

Take a look at the picture of the solenoid, have you grounded one of the small terminals?

Do you have 12 volts going to the "B" terminal of the ignition switch?

solenoid.jpg.d11222210c703b3a781f2c1d04571767.jpg

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ih rock

hi,i noticed that solenoid in the picture has four total ports,and the one I put on there only has three,but I all I did was go to toro dealer and get same thing that was on there,so I guess it could have been wrong from the start,do you think that could be it,thankyou

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953 nut
3 minutes ago, ih rock said:

solenoid in the picture has four total ports,and the one I put on there only has three

If it has three posts it has an internal ground so you are good there. If you take a small jumper from the battery side terminal to the small terminal the starter should turn over, 

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ih rock

I tried that earlier and it did work,but I am confused on how come its not working by the switch.i know that the key works in the "run" position but I am not sure if it works or not in the "crank"position on account of there is no power going to the starter with switch on,i am pretty sure that I didn't put the wrong wires on the solenoid because I put them on the same way they came off,and I tried to switch them around but it was direct so it would keep cranking,i noticed that some of the electrical has been messed with but does't look bad [just kinda sloppy] that I can see so I don't know if there is just a loose connection or something,thankyou

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cafoose

Make sure at least one of the solenoid mounting bolts is grounded good such as bare metal touching bare metal at the mount and there's not too much paint where it mounts. Also make sure the start terminal on the ignition switch has +12V when the key is turned to start and also +12v at the small terminal on the solenoid when turned to start.

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roadapples

Clean terminals on volt or amp gauge...

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953 nut
9 hours ago, ih rock said:

I put them on the same way they came off,and I tried to switch them around but it was direct so it would keep cranking

Slow down and take a system by system approach to trouble shooting.

The solenoid you removed was probably good to begin with, the problem was in the wiring. The other wire you put on was a wire that had 12 volts all the time, but it proved that the solenoid works. 

Have you done ALL the checks I suggested before? If not please do them and report back with the results of each.

10 hours ago, 953 nut said:

Is the PTO lever pulled back toward the operator?

With the key on do do you have 12 volts on the "+" terminal of the coil?

Do you have 12 volts going to the "B" terminal of the ignition switch?

 

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ih rock

I didn't check the volts yet,i will check that out when I get home from work and let you know wat happens,it looks like the pto lever's good,thankyou

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pacer

Nobody has mentioned safety switches.... any one of them could cause this type problem. Find all the switches and bypass them and if it cranks start reconnecting them one at a time and eliminate the bad one

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953 nut
3 hours ago, pacer said:

Nobody has mentioned safety switches.... any one of them could cause this type problem. Find all the switches and bypass them and if it cranks start reconnecting them one at a time and eliminate the bad one

That is why I asked about the PTO. I am trying to have him do a step by step analysis of the systems. Could be  clutch switch if an 8 speed or lots of other things.

Edited by 953 nut

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Pullstart
6 hours ago, ih rock said:

I didn't check the volts yet,i will check that out when I get home from work and let you know wat happens,it looks like the pto lever's good,thankyou

 

:text-welcomewave: to the forum!  Checking volts and continuity through the entire wiring system should be the first thing when troubleshooting, other than verifying connections (especially grounds).  As Richard is telling you, there is some troubleshooting to be had.  I’m not a fan of replacing a big handful of parts “thinking” they are bad, I’d rather pinpoint an issue then move on to the next.

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ih rock

hi guys,i tested the wires and I am getting 12v to solenoid and amp guage and 10 volts to coil,i took off the solenoid and sanded behind it [by hand] to bare metal and also the bolts.When I was testing everthing, I noticed that one of the ports on the solenoid [where battery cable and amp meter connect] is positive and the other one along with the small ground wire where starter cable connects on bottom is ground,switch was in both "run" and "crank" position when done.I took the battery out and saw the pto safety switch you were talking about,but it was completely disconnected and no signs of any wires for that,so I assume that was disconnected/bypassed because it has cranked before.So would the fact that the wire going to the starter is not positive be the problem,and if so how could I fix that,thankyou

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pfrederi
1 hour ago, ih rock said:

hi guys,i tested the wires and I am getting 12v to solenoid and amp guage and 10 volts to coil,i took off the solenoid and sanded behind it [by hand] to bare metal and also the bolts.When I was testing everthing, I noticed that one of the ports on the solenoid [where battery cable and amp meter connect] is positive and the other one along with the small ground wire where starter cable connects on bottom is ground,switch was in both "run" and "crank" position when done.I took the battery out and saw the pto safety switch you were talking about,but it was completely disconnected and no signs of any wires for that,so I assume that was disconnected/bypassed because it has cranked before.So would the fact that the wire going to the starter is not positive be the problem,and if so how could I fix that,thankyou

Start plain.  one heavy wire from battery to  a big terminal on the solenoid, one small wire from that post to the ignition switch (B) terminal.  One heavy wire from the other big solenoid terminal to the starter motor.  One small wire from the  ignition switch "S " terminal to the small post on the solenoid. Should crank when you turn the key to start.

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ih rock

great,thankyou guys I appreciate all your help,i guess I will be doing some electrical pretty soon:no:

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953 nut

One thing we failed to ask is the transmission type. If it is a manual transmission the clutch must be depressed to start the engine (presuming the clutch switch hasn't been bypassed).

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ih rock

its a hydro,but do you think it could have another type of senser somewhere.[I kept the brake locked when attempting to start it]

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Pullstart

This might take three hands and a volt meter... can you check resistance between the + battery post and the trigger post at the solenoid, with the key in the start position?  I’ve seen where the meter shows voltage, but there is too much resistance (bad switch, poor connections, bad wire...) to actually engage the solenoid.  If you don’t have a spare hand available, I’ve used a small pair of vice grips to hang the key in the start position before.  Just make sure you can bump it off if it actually does roll over and fire up!  You should have no resistance (ohms is upside down horseshoe if you are unaware)... don’t check for just continuity unless it’s the same setting.  0 ohms is what we’re looking for. 

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ih rock

hi guys,so I checked the resistance,and there wasn't any,but I saw that in the middle of the wire going from solenoid to amp meter and switch,had half a role of electrical tape on it,so took the tape off and there were two bare bare wires stuck together,so I ripped all that out and installed one new wire and also took amp meter out and cleaned it like crazy,put new nuts and washers on it and made no difference at all,it still won't start.No matter what I do there is no power going to the bottom port of solenoid [where the starter cable connects],

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Pullstart

When you had no resistance, did the meter change or act as if you didn’t touch the terminals together?

 

Could you post any pictures of your wiring harness, and connections?  

 

Have you also confirmed it’ll roll over if you jump a wire from your + battery terminal to the trigger post on the solenoid?  If so...  My next step would be to bypass switches.  Safeties should be normally closed (insert jumper wire here) and your ignition switch is normally open.  A jumper here should make it roll over.

 

I DO ADMIT, THESE ARE GENERAL TROUBLESHOOTING TECHNIQUES THAT I WOULD USE IN ANY WIRING DIAGNOSTICS BUT I HAVE NEVER EVEN TOUCHED A C-175 :handgestures-thumbupright:

 

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ih rock

hi guys,the meter did change when I tested it ,but then went back down to zero,sorry i tried to attach pictures but I couldn't figure out how to do that.So today I took the switch and battery cable out,and sanded them both down,then I realized the [+] battery cable was all really rusty and the terminal rings were coming off,so until I buy both new cables,and since I had a lot of slack on cable I cut the ends off,cleaned them good,and then stuck them in the bench vise to crimp ends back on.well none of that worked.so I got desperate and started trasing every little wire,now let me just say,i thought the small wire on solenoid was a ground wire,but then I kept following it and took all the panels off in front of seat,Lo and behold it was a brake senser like you guys were telling me about,so I ripped the wires off ,and ran them directly from solenoid to key switch,and bypassed it.there has been some progress because ever since bypassing that switch,i can hear a click,almost like there's another senser somewhere causing it not to start,i am assuming that is the solenoid making that noise?oh, and I did try jumping the starter through the solenoid,but now that I think about that was before I bypassed the brake switch so that would be why it didn't start that way,but I am going to replace starter cable,battery cables,and key switch,would anyone happen to know why it's just clicking?

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953 nut
33 minutes ago, ih rock said:

anyone happen to know why it's just clicking?

 

33 minutes ago, ih rock said:

I am going to replace starter cable,battery cables

ALL wiring connectors need to be cleaned and tightened!

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Pullstart

And make sure the solenoid is grounded well.  I run a dedicated ground wire to the solenoid bolt, so I don’t have to rely on the engine tins and motor mounts.

 

HERE’S MY AHH HAH MOMENT!

 

Does this have a shaker plate engine mount?  Those have a short ground to the chassis.  Maybe that’s bad?

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