The "Colossus" project

[Handy Don 10,622]

1 hour ago, Oldskool said:

I have one here I have been thinking of using.

The thoughts were to use the case bolts on the side "left side in pic" to mount it.

Interesting. Designed to run in one direction, though, so it isn't concerned about any adjustment for gear lash--might be a factor with a steering setup.

I'll see if I can get you tooth counts on the reduction steering in my 520 chassis.

[Maxwell-8 4,270]

45 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

It's possible it could go back on there at some point. I doubt it. That snowblower was never much good for blowing snow.  

Just joking, I know how those thing go.. 

 

[Maxwell-8 4,270]

What about the gearbox of a self-propelled mower? Seems to have a good ratio for the job. 

 

My honda mower even has 3 gears. If you could use that, you could have a changeable steering ratio's. 

 

Are we helping or are we drowning you in options?  

[ebinmaine 63,206]

4 minutes ago, Maxwell-8 said:

What about the gearbox of a self-propelled mower? Seems to have a good ratio for the job. 

 

My honda mower even has 3 gears. If you could use that, you could have a changeable steering ratio's. 

 

Are we helping or are we drowning you in options?  

 

 

Definitely helping. No such thing as drowning in options.

 

You just choose the one that's going to work and file the rest for a different project.

 

Not sure what the gearbox on a self-propelled lawn mower looks like...

[Maxwell-8 4,270]

7 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

 

 

Definitely helping. No such thing as drowning in options.

 

You just choose the one that's going to work and file the rest for a different project.

 

Not sure what the gearbox on a self-propelled lawn mower looks like...

This is the one on my honda

[Maxwell-8 4,270]

input is on the back in the picture, but on top when the gearbox is laying how it should. 

 

Again, a sealed and greased option with a pretty big ratio

[Oldskool 6,582]

55 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

Interesting. Designed to run in one direction, though, so it isn't concerned about any adjustment for gear lash--might be a factor with a steering setup.

I'll see if I can get you tooth counts on the reduction steering in my 520 chassis.

Yes designed to run in one direction. Under the load of blowing ice and slush or using as a steering box might not surpass it working load.

Never know till one tries. Much like the u-joints on snowdrift?

 

The tooth count would be very helpful. Thanks Don.

 

I figure if a gear reduction steering can't be had for a reasonable price maybe one could be made.

[Oldskool 6,582]

31 minutes ago, Maxwell-8 said:

input is on the back in the picture, but on top when the gearbox is laying how it should. 

 

Again, a sealed and greased option with a pretty big ratio

Quite an interesting idea. A selectable gear range on a steering box.

Low gear in the woods and high on the flat going?

[ebinmaine 63,206]

39 minutes ago, Oldskool said:

I figure if a gear reduction steering can't be had for a reasonable price maybe one could be made

Same thought I had and I like the creative process too. 

 

30 minutes ago, Oldskool said:

Low gear in the woods and high on the flat going?

That's a VERY interesting possibility. 

And one I'd use ....

 

[Oldskool 6,582]

6 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

Same thought I had and I like the creative process too.

If the tooth count matches close enough to the stuff I have kickin around I may do a small build thread on a gear reduction steering. I have something in mind.

[Handy Don 10,622]

34 minutes ago, Oldskool said:

Quite an interesting idea. A selectable gear range on a steering box.

Low gear in the woods and high on the flat going?

I like the variable assist power steering in my car but I'm not sure how I'd adapt to variable ratios.

 

45 minutes ago, Oldskool said:

Yes designed to run in one direction. Under the load of blowing ice and slush or using as a steering box might not surpass it working load.

Never know till one tries. Much like the u-joints on snowdrift?

 

The tooth count would be very helpful. Thanks Don.

 

I figure if a gear reduction steering can't be had for a reasonable price maybe one could be made.

I wouldn't doubt the snowblower gearbox's strength. Only that its gear lash when changing directions might cause a lot of play in the steering response.

 

WH Reduction steering (as best I can get peering in from the side with a flashlight!)

Steering cog - 10 teeth and steering driven bevel gear - 20 teeth (ratio 2:1)

Sun gear cog - 10 teeth and Sun gear - 14 teeth (ratio 7:5) 

 

14/10 x 20/10 = ~2.8 turns of the wheel to use the full range of the sun gear, however the sun gear isn't fully moved before the spindles hit their stops so the lock-to-lock on the wheel seems to be about 2¼ turns. The standard steering is close to one full turn lock-to-lock.

[Maxwell-8 4,270]

ratio is a lot higher, the sun gear is not a full round gear. how many theeth should it have when it would be fully round

[ebinmaine 63,206]

10 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

lock-to-lock on the wheel seems to be about 2¼ turns. The standard steering is close to one full turn lock-to-lock

 

The lower steering shaft moves maybe 1/4 turn or so as noted by @wallfish I think...

With the upper column to lower column at a direct 1:1 then obviously the wheel is only going to move the same 1/4 turn lock to lock. 

 

A Big part of me appreciates the small movement given that setup. There are a LOT of twists and turns in our woods. 🪵🪵🪵🪓🪓🪓

 

But the concern I have is that I'll be using a steering system that's ((4 times ?)) harder to turn... Minus the extra 30% of added leverage from the oversized wheel. 

 

So I'd be moving my arms/shoulders less distance but using more effort.  

 

 

Other plusses and minuses are:

The engine is around 50 lbs heavier than OE.

There will be a larger battery, likely mounted near the front. 

The fuel tank size is undecided but will be some weight as well.   

 

To my advantage are the tri rib front tires. .... And my own ape-length arms.  😂

 

CAN I steer it 1:1?

Definitely. 

 

It's a matter of how tired I'd be after a half dozen trips in and out of the forest......

[Handy Don 10,622]

7 minutes ago, Maxwell-8 said:

ratio is a lot higher, the sun gear is not a full round gear. how many theeth should it have when it would be fully round

Absolutely correct if we were doing a full ratio calc, but I only wanted to determine the steering turns over the lock-to-lock distance.

I'm guessing the sun gear is a bit less than 90º.

 

We are going to add a spinner to the steering wheel. We like the precision and ease of turning (thrust bearings on the spindles also help). Right now I can palm spin the wheel when the tractor is stopped.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Handy Don

[Oldskool 6,582]

29 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

I like the variable assist power steering in my car but I'm not sure how I'd adapt to variable ratios.

 

I wouldn't doubt the snowblower gearbox's strength. Only that its gear lash when changing directions might cause a lot of play in the steering response.

 

WH Reduction steering (as best I can get peering in from the side with a flashlight!)

Steering cog - 10 teeth and steering driven bevel gear - 20 teeth (ratio 2:1)

Sun gear cog - 10 teeth and Sun gear - 14 teeth (ratio 7:5) 

 

14/10 x 20/10 = ~2.8 turns of the wheel to use the full range of the sun gear, however the sun gear isn't fully moved before the spindles hit their stops so the lock-to-lock on the wheel seems to be about 2¼ turns. The standard steering is close to one full turn lock-to-lock.

Is your variable steering electric assist?

 

Ah yes I didn't take lash into consideration. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

Thanks for taking the time to get the tooth count. That helped alot

[Maxwell-8 4,270]

1 minute ago, Handy Don said:

bit less than 90º.

I will measure tomorrow, but I think it is 90°

[Handy Don 10,622]

1 minute ago, Maxwell-8 said:

I will measure tomorrow, but I think it is 90°

remember to measure tooth to valley 

[ebinmaine 63,206]

I'm absolutely loving this fact that you folks are going back and forth processing this all out. Fascinating stuff.  

 

A HUGE part of a build like this is the thinking and planning...

 

[Handy Don 10,622]

6 minutes ago, Oldskool said:

Is your variable steering electric assist?

 

Good question! The steering ratio is constant, but at higher speeds there is less assist. 

Power is hydraulic from a standard engine-driven pump. A signal from the car's computer that knows your speed tells a special valve to deliver more or less pressure to the (special) rack and pinion at low or high speeds, respectively.

[ranger 1,639]

What type of gears does the snowblower have? If they are worm and wheel you’ll lose the self centre ability of the steering geometry due to the wheel not being able to drive the worm, Good for going round in endless circles though!.

[Handy Don 10,622]

1 minute ago, ranger said:

What type of gears does the snowblower have? If they are worm and wheel you’ll lose the self centre ability of the steering geometry due to the wheel not being able to drive the worm, Good for going round in endless circles though!.

Thanks for chipping in with this excellent point! The WH reduction gear steering gives nice feedback from the steered wheels to the steering wheel and (on smooth terrain) does self-center.

 

[ebinmaine 63,206]

2 minutes ago, ranger said:

If they are worm and wheel you’ll lose the self centre ability of the steering geometry due to the wheel not being able to drive the worm, Good for going round in endless circles though!.

 

Good information there. 

 

The rough terrain here means it won't matter to me if the steering doesn't return... 

That's certainly something to be considered by most though.  

 

[Oldskool 6,582]

3 minutes ago, ranger said:

What type of gears does the snowblower have? If they are worm and wheel you’ll lose the self centre ability of the steering geometry due to the wheel not being able to drive the worm, Good for going round in endless circles though!.

I would assume it's worm and wheel by the design of the housing. I'm not 100% sure. Never had one apart.

 

Aren't most older automotive steering boxes worm and wheel??

[Maxwell-8 4,270]

5 minutes ago, ranger said:

What type of gears does the snowblower have? If they are worm and wheel you’ll lose the self centre ability of the steering geometry due to the wheel not being able to drive the worm, Good for going round in endless circles though!.

Like on my bolens drive gear, It can't roll free.

 

[Maxwell-8 4,270]

1 minute ago, Oldskool said:

 

Aren't most older automotive steering boxes worm and wheel??

Yes but they are synchro.