416-8 safety switch help

[KREP 15]

Hey gents, I’m a long time lurker, but new member and I need some advice. I bought a 416-8 brandy new when I built my house in 1989. I still use it to mow my 3 acres. Lately I’ve had to jump it to start. So I ordered the 3 111332 safety switches and seat safety switch.  I replaced the seat switch. ( I put in a new solenoid). For the life of me I can’t seem to find the clutch switch. I’ve looked up by the pedal and nothing and no wires to follow. I am thinking it’s got to be near the rear but don’t see anything.  Can anybody tell me exactly where it is located?  Thank you in advance.  I don’t intend to retire the old horse anytime soon. I’ve gardened,  landscaped, mowed and pushed a lot of snow with it for the last 30 years here in Michigan .

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,491]

I believe the clutch pedal switch is inside the tunnel your shifters come up through. It is the lever the belt idler pulley is mounted on that actives the switch.

If you look down through the slots for the shift levers you should see it on the right side vertical panel.

Left and right is always from the operator's position in the seat.

 

Garry

[KREP 15]

It’s not one of the 2 switches mounted together at the pto lever is it?  

 

I will look where where you said when I get home. Thank you.  That rod that goes down the tunnel goes to the left and down by the rear axles/trans. 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,491]

2 hours ago, KREP said:

It’s not one of the 2 switches mounted together at the pto lever is it?  

No. One pto switch controls the starter circuit and the other controls the ignition.

 

I will look where where you said when I get home. Thank you.  That rod that goes down the tunnel goes to the left and down by the rear axles/trans. 

The brake pedal on the right crosses over and controls the brake band on the left of the transmission.

The clutch pedal on the left crosses over and controls the drive belt idler and neutral switch on the right side of the tractor.

 

Garry

[biged77 107]

To get to the switch you have to remove the cover where the shift lever and parking brake lever go through.  You also need to remove the right side sheet metal cover.  Then you can push the switch through to the outside so you can disconnect the wires if you want to replace the switch or to check it.

 

Ed

[KREP 15]

Thanks men. I’ll get on it tonight. 

[KREP 15]

Well, got home took everything apart.  Park brake switch ok. Clutch switch ok. Seat switch new and works fine. Tried to jump start. Would crank but no ignition.  I looked at fuses. 10 and 20 amp ok. The 30 above the starter relay was really fried.  Replaced it, jumped relay and engine fired right up. But still won’t work with key. I have two 111332 switches I will replace tomorrow at the pto.  If that don’t work I’m baffled. 

[KREP 15]

Well, I put 2 new switches on the pto, hooked everything back up and a big fat nothing when I turned the key. The warning lights are all functioning ok. All the switches work, Headlamps are bright and battery is good. 

 

Tomorrow I am gonna check the wires that are at the front above the relay with the 30 amp fuse. The fuse there was fried and melted, so maybe the fuse holder is not working.  I will check continuity of the wires coming and going past the fuse.

 

I am at at a loss otherwise.  Everything looks good.  I pull the choke out, turn the key on, arc the relay and off she goes.  But nothing with the key. I have a good wiring diagram, and everything checks out. Dang it. 

 

I replaced the ignition switch about 10-15 years ago. Maybe it’s bad.  

Edited July 19, 2019 by KREP

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,491]

These detailed wiring diagrams may help if you don't have them.

For a fuse to melt it's holder the connections were not capable of handling the current through the circuit. They could have been loose and/or corroded. If it is a single holder there are 30 amp replacements available that have stronger springs to improve the contact. A smear of dielectric silicone grease on the contacts will prevent future corrosion.

Sounds like you are getting close to the cause of the problem.

 

Garry

[tunahead72 2,337]

18 hours ago, KREP said:

Well, I put 2 new switches on the pto, hooked everything back up and a big fat nothing when I turned the key. The warning lights are all functioning ok. All the switches work, Headlamps are bright and battery is good.

 

...

 

I replaced the ignition switch about 10-15 years ago. Maybe it’s bad.  

 

Did you test your old PTO switches before you installed the new ones, and did you also test the new ones?  And is it possible the arm on your PTO lever isn't contacting the switch fingers properly?  That turned out to be one of the problems on my 310-8 recently, a carpenter's shim is now a very handy part of my starting routine, at least until I can take that whole assembly apart again.

 

Also, you can do voltage tests on your ignition switch.  I found it difficult to connect my meter to the terminals on the back of the switch to check for voltage with the battery and everything else in the way, so I removed the switch entirely and did a bunch of continuity tests, and found problems there also.

 

[KREP 15]

Thanks. I’ll take the ign switch out tomorrow. Might warm here today. The pto arms both actuate when the lever is moved fwd. the old ones were corroded bad an not real solid 

 

 

[Bill D 1,599]

Do you have a Kohler or Onan?  If you have the Onan there is a relay mounted under the battery tray that controls the starter solenoid.  I have a 416-H, now 416-8, that would not start with the key.  I cleaned the terminals on this relay and it works now. 

[KREP 15]

I have the onan. I had the tray out, but didn’t see a relay. I’ll yank the battery and try and have a look. Thank you. 

 

 

Pulled the battery and tray today.  Looked there and there was a square connector which I took apart and cleaned with

CRC spray. The ignition module is in there and other small electrical items. No relays.   

 

I arced it and started it then got on the seat.  Let it run a minute then jumped off it to move something. The dang think kept running!  The lamp check and circuit all looked fine, but it shoulda shut down.  This tractor may be haunted. 

 

 

Edited July 22, 2019 by KREP

[Bill D 1,599]

It should stay running when you leave the seat as long as the PTO is not engaged.  The item you refer to as an ignition module is the relay for the starter that I had get corroded on my tractor.  If you can post some pics of the parts in question it would make it easier to help you.  Also check the condition of the 9 pin connector.  They are known to melt.  I also had to repair the main fuse block due to a fuse holder melting.  If you lived closer I would be happy to help you.  Bill

[KREP 15]

The ignition module I’m referring to is where the key goes (left of steering column as you stand in front of tractor).  The 9 pin is what I sprayed with CRC. It is like new inside. No corrosion. It’s never spent a night outside. 

 

 

 

thank you for you help. 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2019 by KREP

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,491]

Not likely your problem but this is a good example of what to look for if you have an intermittent short in wiring. It appears the wires are rubbing on the steering shaft. It will wear a flat in the insulation and in the center of the flat there may be a bare wire that may require very close examination to see the exposure.

 

The idiot light module can be disconnected and have no effect on the operation of the tractor. Left connected it may assist in the diagnosis of the electrical failure.

I would suggest you clean the grass away from the bottom of the module as the acid in the grass will corrode the circuit board.

 

Garry

[Bill D 1,599]

The 9 pin connector you are looking for goes between the engine and tractor wiring harness.  Could you take a picture of the item you are describing as an ignition module?  I believe it is the relay I that I had corrode on mine.  The relay is mounted under the battery tray.  You would have to remove the front panel that has the key switch and gauges to see it.  It is a small square, 5 pin relay made by Hella  and it controls the starter solenoid.

[KREP 15]

The ignition module I’m referring to is the key switch where the key is inserted. It is the round lock cylinder with 4-5 connectors.  

You can see the 9 pin connector in the picture I posted.  It is a white square connector in the battery area (after removal of battery). 

 

When I get home I will take the plate off where the key switch is and look for the 5 pin Hella 

 

thank you

 

and by the way, the wire next to the steering shaft has all the insulation intact.  A weed made it look like a run thru. You have a good eye. 

Edited July 25, 2019 by KREP

[Bill D 1,599]

The 9 pin connector you are looking for looks just like that one, but will be located between the engine and tractor wiring harnesses.  It should be somewhere near your oil filter.  

[KREP 15]

Ok. I took the panels at the shifter and gage panel.  Got my blower out and blew about  bushel of hay out of there. 

 

Then I looked by the oil filter and saw another connector.  I took that apart too and hosed everything down with CRC. It looks like a large cable in one of the pictures. 

 

I assembled everything, hit the key and the ol’ mule started right up. Wow!

 

 

Edited July 26, 2019 by KREP

[KREP 15]

So what’s a guy to do?  I took her over to the low spot that hasn’t been mowed yet this year because of standing water.  I mowed about 2 acres of weeds about 2-3 feet high. You can see them behind the tractor. 

 

I finally got got stuck in the mud and got a chain and pulled her out. 

 

A little spray down with the garden hose and she’s ready for the next job. As you see I never baby her. 

 

None of these connectors have have ever been apart or replaced except the seat switch and starter switch which are both replacements. 

 

Thank you again everyone. With your wisdom and God  guiding my hand, everything is good again. 

[KREP 15]

Just thought I would pass this along:

 

for the last last several years my Onan 16 has been hard to start. I thought it might be a clogged fuel line or filter, or weak coil or other ignition problem. After replacing these switches, and spraying

all the connectors,

particularly the one by the oil filter that BillD mentioned things have improved. When I pull the choke out at a cold start, the engine fires up immediately. Like less than 2 revolutions.  Amazing. Before I would pour gas down the carburetor or used starting fluid to get it going. Even in summer.  I even thought it might be a bad fuel pump. But no.  I have used non ethanol gas for a long time and still had this issue.  I can’t believe how much better the old mule runs with the electronics up to snuff. 

 

Thank you gwest,  Bill D, tunahead, biged77, and all. 

 

If if I can help anyone please let me know. I’ll be right cheer.

Edited July 30, 2019 by KREP
Fix spelling