PTO Fustration

[JoeA 3]

Recently picked up 417a. The PTO slows down and stops when cutting have 48 inch deck 

I replaced the clutch surface and grease seal on PTO housing  the blades seem to spin freely the mule pulleys seem to spin freely.  When I do engage the blades they spin but on my 312 8 the spin up was quite loud these spin up but not that loud.  I tightened the engagement rod but do not want to go to tight any ideas 

 

[JoeA 3]

Ok so after some more trouble shooting 

this is what I have found when I engage the PTO the engine deflects I also found with the PTO engaged I can turn the outer pulley by hand.  I think the linkage is tight enough since the engine is deflecting 

Any ideas ?

[Lee1977 7,232]

Could be the the rubber mounts between the engine plate and the frame.  There is a metal replacement made by some one It was posted in the last week or so.

Zack Kerber Machine & Design     Solid engine mount set  $24.50

 

You said 417 A I was think C-175 above. Your engine should be mounted solid but there is a plate under it. Are you sure the engine is moving. There Is a short shaft in the end of the PTO pulley with two C-clip with a bearing between connected to the PTO loop. If the bearing is bad or the out side C-clip comes off  you can't adjust the PTO.

Edited June 21, 2019 by Lee1977

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,528]

If you can turn the pulley by hand with the pto engaged it is not tight enough and slipping.

Check to make sure the snap ring 34 on the stub shaft 33 that pushes on the outer bearing has not popped out of it's groove. Retaining rings are punched out when made so one side has rounded edges and the other side has nice sharp edges. That sharp edge needs to face out in this case to stay in the groove. A rounded edge can slip out under pressure resulting in the stub shaft being pushed into the bearing instead of pushing the clutch in.

 

Garry

[lynnmor 7,859]

What kind of a mess do you have there?  It appears that the clutch plate is on backwards and the whole center is broken out.  Disassemble the PTO and give us photos of all the parts.

[Lee1977 7,232]

3 minutes ago, lynnmor said:

What kind of a mess do you have there?  It appears that the clutch plate is on backwards and the whole center is broken out.  Disassemble the PTO and give us photos of all the parts.

I believe that's just a poor job of some one attaching clutch material.

[JoeA 3]

The clutch  is after market that I JB welded  onto the old plate the center is carved out so the retrainer clips will fit 

the inside diameter was to large so needed to be modified. 

 

Stub shaft question  and answer yes the snap ring is in place. 

Does the stub shaft float in and out when not under pressure or is it always in a fixed position 

 

Thank You 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,528]

The stub shaft should stay with the 36 ball bearing because there is another 34 snap ring on the other side of the bearing.

 

35 is a large retaining ring keeping the 36 ball bearing in the pulley.

 

Garry

[Rfp55 33]

By looking at 2nd pic, and parts diagram - your clutch disc #43 has the hub broke out of it. Small fix maybe.

[clueless 3,267]

I'm pretty sure what ever that is that's bolted to the pulley ain't gonna work. 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,528]

I don't see how the friction material he added would compromise the performance. The replacement friction material he used just did not have a 4" hole or whatever it is like the original and he did the best he could with what he had to work with.

I say it should work maybe even better than the original with the increased surface area.

 

JoeA where did you get that friction disc?

 

Garry

[doc724 925]

Only two things are root cause of the problem you described.  First, there is not sufficient axial force on the clutch plate (friction disc).  You can fix that by tightening the trunion.  The second is that there is insufficient swept area or close contact between the disc and the bell.  Take a look at the pictures, the surface of the bell doesn't look right.  Looks like it was left out in the rain and became rusted.  The friction disc also shows lack of good contact.  As you said it was aftermarket fix and if you did not press the friction material on with a heavy weight, it may not be parallel to the surface of the bell.  I would recommend you get the bell put on a lathe and faced off.  The friction disc; if someone has a blanchard grinder, they can surface grind the friction material.  Alternatively, just buy a new friction disc, it may be cheaper in the long run.

[JoeA 3]

This is the friction disc that I used  I had to use a dies grinder to removed the center material..... not pretty but functional..... I think 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07B1KWTW8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[JoeA 3]

Hi Everyone I am still having issues was out of town for a few weeks and have some time to work on this issue again

 

I was searching and read a couple of posts that said if you are having trouble adjusting the clutch you can move the engine drive pulley forward so 

the bearing race carrier is even with the end of the crankshaft.  

 

Is this OK ? 

Will it throw the drive belt out of alignment.... Any input or help appreciated. 

 

Thank U 

[rmaynard 16,374]

I don't think that's a good idea for the reasons you just stated, alignment. I sell brake linings (no clutch faces) and the material that I use is the same stuff Toro uses on their brake bands. I would guess that for this application you might want to try a genuine clutch from Toro. The material that you are using looks to me to be your problem. Also, check the face of the metal clutch plate to make sure it is flat and true. Rough it up a bit with 220 grit sandpaper on a flat surface. Make sure that when you greased up the bearing that you put in no more that about 1 tablespoon of grease. More than that and it can leak out when hot and degrade both clutch surfaces.

[Bill D 2,283]

Since you said the tractor is new to you, does it have the correct clutch hoop?  I swapped a KT 17 in a 310-8 to replace the worn out M10 and discovered that the clutch hoops are different.  You cannot use a clutch hoop from a Kohler Single with a Kohler Twin.  The hoop will get jammed against the bracket on the motor without activating the clutch.  Just a thought.  Post some pics of the fully assembled clutch mech.  Someone here may spot something wrong. 

[JoeA 3]

8 hours ago, Bill D said:

Since you said the tractor is new to you, does it have the correct clutch hoop?  I swapped a KT 17 in a 310-8 to replace the worn out M10 and discovered that the clutch hoops are different.  You cannot use a clutch hoop from a Kohler Single with a Kohler Twin.  The hoop will get jammed against the bracket on the motor without activating the clutch.  Just a thought.  Post some pics of the fully assembled clutch mech.  Someone here may spot something wrong. 

 

Thank you for that suggestion I will compare to my 312/8   I am also thinking the PTO adjustment rod might be bent  

 

Can I take the entire assembly off the 312/8  and put it on the 417/a   ??

[Bill D 2,283]

No, the clutch hoop won't work. The M10 and M12 clutch hoops are the same.