formariz 11,849 #1 Posted November 16, 2018 So yesterday I used my Electro the whole day moving stuff around getting ready for the snow storm. As always no problem always reliable. Now into the storm I have probably 8 inches of snow so I go to get it and motor will not turn over. It is dead locked up. Cannot even turn engine by hand. Check everything ,oil starter all is normal. Decide to take flywheel screen off and use a socket wrench to turn flywheel. Now it turned but for about two seconds there was a noise like meshing gears coming from inside. Noise then disappears and now flywheel turns normally. Try to start it and now it starts on first crank as always. What happened??What could that noise have been that locked up engine after it was stopped? Is it a sign of bad things coming? Engine is a replacement K301 and it has very low hours. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Terry M-(Moderator) 2,125 #2 Posted November 16, 2018 Maybe something with the PTO ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pfrederi 17,147 #3 Posted November 16, 2018 Are you sure the bendix had completely disengaged? 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ericj 1,576 #4 Posted November 16, 2018 Sounds like the starter Bendix was stuck engaged, no new noise since getting it running ? Good luck Eric j 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oldredrider 2,547 #5 Posted November 16, 2018 Buddy of mine picked up a C-120 with a nice 42" deck for a song because "engine was locked up". Pulled the starter and freed it up. Worked perfectly and sold it for big bucks. Just sayin'... 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Tuul Crib 7,332 #6 Posted November 16, 2018 11 minutes ago, oldredrider said: Buddy of mine picked up a C-120 with a nice 42" deck for a song because "engine was locked up". Pulled the starter and freed it up. Worked perfectly and sold it for big bucks. Just sayin'... Same thing happened to me on my 312-8. Paid 100 bucks for all it had was mouse nest in the fly wheel shroud cleaned it all out and started right up . 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
formariz 11,849 #7 Posted November 16, 2018 (edited) PTO was not engaged .I tried to turn it also without the belt.Starter Bendix was fine. It would engage flywheel and since engine would not turn it would retract back all the time. Noise of "meshing gears"came from inside engine not starter once i forced flywheel to turn with a breaker bar. Used again today and no problem. What ever locked it up was inside engine. However I cannot think of what it may have done that. This thing was really locked up tight.. It took a little effort to turn it with breaker bar. Edited November 16, 2018 by formariz Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
953 nut 51,735 #8 Posted November 16, 2018 Cold night, warm engine.......could it be that a rodent took up lodging in the engine tins and got caught when the starter was engaged? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
formariz 11,849 #9 Posted November 16, 2018 24 minutes ago, 953 nut said: Cold night, warm engine.......could it be that a rodent took up lodging in the engine tins and got caught when the starter was engaged? Unlikely since with tractor shares shelter with two cats. Never have problems with rodents here. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Terry M-(Moderator) 2,125 #10 Posted November 16, 2018 Not an engine expert...but could the balance gears (if so equipped) cause those symptoms? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
formariz 11,849 #11 Posted November 16, 2018 13 minutes ago, Terry M said: Not an engine expert...but could the balance gears (if so equipped) cause those symptoms? Came to mind about them also. I am not familiar with them but i don't see what could cause that type of noise inside engine. Noise came from the lower end of valve section it seems. Hopefully some engine guru chimes in. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pfrederi 17,147 #12 Posted November 16, 2018 (edited) Is your ACR still working? if you turn the engine over slowly with a wrench do feel a slight reduction in effort on the compression stroke as you bring it up (when the exhaust valve pops up a bit). There are springs and counterweights some thing could have come off gotten stuck then fell to the bottom of the oil pan.... Edit: holding your finger in teh spark plug hole as you slowly turn her over you should feel teh compression build then go away then build again.... Edited November 16, 2018 by pfrederi 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
formariz 11,849 #13 Posted November 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, pfrederi said: Is your ACR still working? if you turn the engine over slowly with a wrench do feel a slight reduction in effort on the compression stroke as you bring it up (when the exhaust valve pops up a bit). There are springs and counterweights some thing could have come off gotten stuck then fell to the bottom of the oil pan.... Edit: holding your finger in teh spark plug hole as you slowly turn her over you should feel teh compression build then go away then build again.... Will check shortly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
formariz 11,849 #14 Posted November 16, 2018 Checked ACR and that seems to be working properly. Will probably drain oil and see if anything is on bottom of pan. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pfrederi 17,147 #15 Posted November 16, 2018 (edited) This is a stumper...Not much inside an engine can fall off and not affect its operation.... Dipstick ok not nicked or bent??? Edited November 16, 2018 by pfrederi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wallfish 15,929 #16 Posted November 16, 2018 5 hours ago, formariz said: What happened??What could that noise have been that locked up engine after it was stopped? Starter gear was engaged and slightly bound up? Turning it back and forth with a socket would release it. This might also explain the "meshing gear noise" but it would stop once the gear is released. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
953 nut 51,735 #17 Posted November 16, 2018 2 hours ago, Terry M said: Not an engine expert...but could the balance gears (if so equipped) cause those symptoms? Hope this isn't the case, but they are also called "Grenade Gears". If the bearings are bad I've heard they can make quite a racket prior to ventilating the engine's crank case. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shynon 7,435 #18 Posted November 16, 2018 (edited) Seems odd but could it have been a valve stuck in the closed position? It may have been getting tight and just happens when you turned it off it stuck down. Usually the stick open. It took a lot of force to turn the crank and cam to break it loose. Now it is running fine. My thought would be to pull the head and the valve cover and remove the valves see if they are gummed up, tight etc. I would also pull the motor and remove the oil pan and take a look inside before a good engine becomes scrap metal. Check the cam and make sure it is not broken (hairline crack) and remove balance gears if they are in this motor. Edited November 16, 2018 by Shynon 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZXT 2,394 #19 Posted November 17, 2018 I also suspect that it was the starter bendix binding. I've had it happen on both my GT-14 and my CC 1650. Turning the flywheel manually presented the "binding gears" noise that you describe. After that, no problems. Without pulling the engine shroud off, I'm not sure how you'd be able to tell 100% that the gears weren't in some kind of a bind. Have you run it since then? If you have and there aren't any concerning noises, I wouldn't be worried about it. Engines tend to seize when they're running, not after they're shut off. The balance gears are the only other things that might be a possibility. I know they like to put a window in the block when they fail, but I'm not sure if they would lock the engine up as you describe. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
formariz 11,849 #20 Posted November 17, 2018 The logical reason I agree would be the starter as the cause of the binding and then the subsequent noise.What baffles me is the fact that I am able to watch the Bendix move back and forth as I turn the key, and I can be sure that it is retracted all the way when not engaged. It was also very obvious where the noise came from and it was not from starter area. I get a feeling something is brewing in there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shynon 7,435 #21 Posted November 17, 2018 How is the governor response? maybe a weight broke off and got stuck in the gear between the cam and crank. I have seen the plastic governor gears beak. I'm still on the side of pulling the motor and the oil pan and take a look. Most you are out is some time and an oil pan gasket. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ebinmaine 63,166 #22 Posted November 17, 2018 8 hours ago, Shynon said: How is the governor response? maybe a weight broke off and got stuck in the gear between the cam and crank. I have seen the plastic governor gears beak. I'm still on the side of pulling the motor and the oil pan and take a look. Most you are out is some time and an oil pan gasket. Cheap insurance to make sure something isn't floating around in there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
formariz 11,849 #23 Posted November 17, 2018 14 hours ago, Shynon said: How is the governor response? maybe a weight broke off and got stuck in the gear between the cam and crank. I have seen the plastic governor gears beak. I'm still on the side of pulling the motor and the oil pan and take a look. Most you are out is some time and an oil pan gasket. Governor is functioning perfectly as always. I am positive that problem was not starter. For the time being as a quick peace of mind fix I am going to drain oil and examine oil pan. This engine does not have a dipstick, only a plug where that would be. It does have a 3/4" plug also at the pan where one actually checks oil level. I can see the bottom of pan there and can even insert my magnetic flexible tool and see if I "fish" anything out. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites