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Kurt-NEPA

Noisy 5xi Two Stage Blower

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1 hour ago, Sarge said:

Fitup depth on sprockets is more important than you'd think - as well as chain sizing . I believe there is a size 42 chain - there are ways to measure and figure out what the sprockets require to fit correctly but can't find it now . Perhaps in it's past life someone put an odd sprocket on there with a different spacing than the others ?

 

Sarge

 

I've been thinking chain fitment issues for quite a while now.  I'll check out #42 chain,  who knows that the previous owner may of done. I wish Toro had more detail on their parts lists.

 

At this point I have new #40 chain, two #40 idler sprockets, and a new #40 drive sprocket.  The drive sprocket came from McMaster Carr, so it should be good quality, but the chain and idlers came from TSC.  So who knows about the TSC quality, but I have used these product before with good luck.  The only thing left in chain drive that I have not replaced is the the driven sprocket on the impeller shaft.  Once it warms up a bit, I'll get a tooth count and order a new one from McMaster-Carr,  probably get a new chain and idler sprockets too. 

 

I'm really surprised at this blower, it was in like new condition when I bought it.  I didn't anticipate any issues with it.  i guess you never know.

 

Thanks for the comments Sarge, helps me wrap my head around this thing.

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A quick follow up to a post an earlier post about the belt idler pulleys.  I was trying to get one apart to replace the bearing.  Well, I succeeded in getting it apart this afternoon.  The pulley is not spot welded together,  It was two sheet metal stampings held together and was circumferentially welded together at the root of the belt V.  I managed to turn most of weld off and wedged the halves apart..  I'm not sure this pulley is work trying to save,  I distorted it getting the two halves apart.

 

Anyway, the bearing was a Fafnir 203P, the industry standard designation is 6203-2RS. 40mm OD, 17mm ID and 12mm thick. Its a very common and cheap bearing, about $3-$6 from various sources.  So it would be an economical repair if I could figure out a better way to get the halves apart.  I could drill 6 holes around the mating surface and bolt this thing back together.  I'm not sure I will try.

 

Edited by Kurt-NEPA

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When I rebuilt the old single stage I used those sprockets from TSC as well as their chain - the main drive shaft sprocket wasn't machined correctly and destroyed the new chain in short order , not to mention it was pretty noisy . That's the reason I brought it up and wasn't sure if you replaced all the sprockets or just some of them . The 42 size chain is odd but can be found - if you've replaced everything with #40 it should work fine - but any one of those sprockets could be off - even new so don't trust them . Been down this road too often with other equipment eating chains and making far too much noise for it's own good - it's almost always a poorly machined sprocket . Running them for awhile at full speed will start to reveal which one is the culprit - it will start showing some wear or burrs on the teeth - but it will also ruin a new roller chain while doing the break in testing .

 

Sarge

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On ‎12‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 1:52 PM, Kurt-NEPA said:

 

 

I'm not sure this pulley is work trying to save,  I distorted it getting the two halves apart.

 

 

 

Did a thread on this awhile back Kurt I try it on all my old ones just for what the heck & nothing ventured nothing gained & some it just don't pay....welded up too tight.

 

 

Edited by WHX12
forgot link!
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More straw grasping here .... 

 

Were the eccentric collars on the jackshaft bearings themselves properly locked to the shaft during installation?

 

I know my jackshaft spun a bearing and wound up digging into the shaft pretty good.

 

So I replaced the shaft and bearings and locked the new bearings in place by turning the collars "in the direction of shaft rotation"

 

Attached is a Toro Technical Tip document I found online that helped with the above.  Seems some folks were turning the collars in the wrong direction (opposite shaft rotation). 

 

If its a loud wine I would say it has to be on the "high rev" side of the blower and not the auger side which turns much slower.

 

Not totally scientific ...but how about using a infrared heat gun to see if something may be heating up at a disproportionate rate?

 

Given all you've done I'll bet you could take this thing apart in your sleep.

 

Ed  

Toro Technician Tips Eccentric Collar quality_tips_june.pdf

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Thanks for that pdf Ed :handgestures-thumbupright: .. We had talked about how to tighten those in other threads but I can never remember which way to tighten.:unsure: Now it's going in a shop manual.

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Wow!, I've been off line for a few days and I get back on to see some nice posts - Thanks everyone.

 

Sarge, I too suspect some misfit of the chain to the sprockets.  Running the chain tension loose, I could see the chain riding up on the sprocket teeth and then snapping down.  That seemed to go away  with the chain tension set on the tight side.  When turning things over by hand, I can hear a clicking using a stethoscope and I think that is the issue.  Strange this is that I heard this same thing with the original equipment - or at least what was on it when i got it.  Who knows who was into this 20 year old blower before I got it.  All I know to do now is to get some quality sprockets and chain and try again.

 

WHX12 - Thanks for the link to your pulley repair.  Nice technique.  I just did something similar on the old idler pulley I had on the scrap pile.  This was one was TIG welded at the root of the vee.  I cut the weld off as best I could and pried the halves apart.  I had drilled 6 holes earlier and then bolted it back together.  Good new is that it worked, bad news is that I damaged the pulley and have about .040 wobble now.  I would use this pulley in a pinch if I had to.  But I have to find a better way to get the weld off.

 

emdmat1981 - Thanks for the link to the Toro cam lock tip.   Good to know I was taught to do the right thing many years ago.  I've always had good luck with cam lock bearings.  You are right about this loud whine being on the high speed side of this blower.  The auger gear box and outboard auger bearing are tight and quiet.  All the noise is coming from the chain area.  Nothing seems to be getting warm, but I have only run for short periods.  The only thing my stethoscope picks up is a harshness (almost a high speed click) coming from both idler sprockets, so they will get replaced once things warm up.

 

Thanks much,

 

Kurt

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Kurt-NEPA said:

damaged the pulley and have about .040 wobble now

That's pretty good Kurt ... I have taken new ones out of the box with more wobble than that. I've damaged a few myself and like I said in the thread don't worry about wrecking it's already shot.  Those ones welded in the center I gave up on trying.

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My Attempt at salvaging the belt idler pulley.  Not pretty, but I think functional. Still needs some straightening and file work

5a46b1cc0e029_Pulley1.jpg.666e339a35ea43b71fcad9e8ed408caf.jpg

 

On this picture you see where I cut to weld out.  Quite ragged in there.

 

5a46b1f82b722_Pulley2.jpg.3733a95ff100911dd87e13df70483118.jpg

 

Kurt

4 minutes ago, WHX12 said:

That's pretty good Kurt ... I have taken new ones out of the box with more wobble than that. I've damaged a few myself and like I said in the thread don't worry about wrecking it's already shot.  Those ones welded in the center I gave up on trying.

 

I could not have gotten this apart without a lathe and cutoff tool.  Even with that it was a challenge and I bent things up quite a bit.  Also the lathe chuck damaged the OD of the pulley.  I'm not sure that I will use this one.

 

Toro wants $67 for this pulley and there are 4 of them. Ouch.  I started looking around and found a Cub Cadet pulley that has the same dimensions and looks identical.  I ordered one and will check it out.  If the same, I'll get three more for the pulley box.

 

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That's cheating you got a lathe! I tried to do it with a thin cutoff wheel and rotating by hand. Looks like a heavier one tho worth saving, not one of those thin chinzy metal ones.

Those chuck marks can be trimmed/smoothed out with a file .... would be ok for emergency backup.

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4 minutes ago, WHX12 said:

 would be ok for emergency backup.

 

That's what I was thinking. 

BTW, a lathe is not cheating, its a necessity.  I have 3 of them.  My 10" Clausing got this apart.  That's a 9" South Bend in the picture.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Kurt-NEPA said:

have 3 of them

One is on my bucket list!

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I did the same thing - the hydro drive pulley on the 1277 is NLA and an odd size . I had to weld mine up with the tig and turn it back to the correct profile to stop the belt slippage - then found 2 on the auction site in new condition - I own one of them for a spare now . Since I've gotten the old Enco lathe I couldn't live without it - the thing has paid for itself in the bushings I've had to make to repair NLA parts several times over already and that's just the tractor stuff - I do a lot of welding on old parts for folks and make new parts on a regular basis - need a better lathe soon but am lacking the room right now .

 

I'd spend the time clamping a flat piece of stock against those sprockets and make certain nothing is out of alignment - if the chain is trying to ride up on the teeth that is usually the culprit unless the teeth are the wrong pitch - that's why I mention the 42 size chain/sprockets as I've seen them show up in odd places . Not sure how someone would get one to replace a worn out or damaged sprocket - they are not that common in most stores . Imported sprockets are generally not machined to exact specs - some are pretty horrible and not even close which makes matters worse as that's what most places carry now . Rural King has had a pretty decent selection and good quality - just fyi .

 

Sarge

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5 hours ago, Sarge said:

Since I've gotten the old Enco lathe I couldn't live without it - the thing has paid for itself in the bushings

 

Sarge

 

You are so right about a old lathe Sarge,  My 10" Clausing has paid for itself several times over.  Its not perfect, but it get the job done.  Bushings are a main stay along with spacers, shoulder bolts, and shafts.  Not to mention polishing up old shafts.  One of the most used tools in my shop.

 

We'll see what the Spring brings with my noise, I am going to replace the entire chain drive with quality parts.and see what happens. Wish we had a Rural King here, all we have is TSC.  Not even any industrial suppliers nearby except Grainger.  So I'll get my parts from McMaster.

 

Also, I think I have found an idler pulley to fit this beast.  Toro wants over $65 for theirs, so four of them are over $260.  I found Cub Cadet idler pulley that looks identical and has the same dimensions.  Price is $17-23.  When I get it, I'll check it out and let everyone know.  I'm hoping for the best.

 

Kurt

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For the past 11 years I have worked in the machine shop as a machinist and if I can carry it in/out I will either fix it make new what I'm needing at the time, but with the new position I'm losing access to the lathes and mills, so with that being said discussing this with veteran machinists/tool makers at work as long as its not a huge part and not trying to do more than the machine is really capable of (just like these tractors there's a size for each need), that one these SmithyBilt or similar brand bench top 3-in-1 lathe mill/drill press would be the ticket for most of the parts we need to make especially for price/size/specs and 110/240 volt wiring and it will definitely be one of my next investments, Jeff.

Screenshot_20171230-174638.png

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14 hours ago, WVHillbilly520H said:

one these SmithyBilt or similar brand bench top 3-in-1 lathe mill/drill press would be the ticket for most of the parts we need to make especially for price/size/specs and 110/240 volt wiring and it will definitely be one of my next investments, Jeff.

 

 

I have a similar backgound Jeff.  As a young engineer, I had access to a full machine and fabrication shop at work.  As the career took me elsewhere, I lost that access.  I made do for a long time.  When I got into tractors, I had to do something.  For me I choose a 10" lathe and a smaller import Mill/Drill.  They have been perfect for what we need on these tractors.  Would I like bigger machines?  You bet, I miss them, but I don't have the room or the cash.  I would check that 3 in 1 out for sure.  The shortcoming on these is usually the milling table size and low power.  Low power means lite cuts, but that is fine with me. 

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Update on ildler pulleys.  I didn't like the price for the Toro idler pulleys in the pulley box.  So I went on the hunt and found a Cub Cadet pulley that looked very similar.  I ordered one to take a look. Price was almost 1/3.

 

Cub Cadet Info

 

Cub Cadet Commercial 02005079 V-Idler Pulley

Replaces: CUB CADET: 02005079, 756-3045, 75604522, 956-3045, 9563045A  and GRAVELY: 07340100

Dimensions and Specifications: ID 3/8"  X OD 5" X HEIGHT 1-1/8"

 

I checked all the dimensions.  They are almost a perfect match.  The only difference I could see is with the bushing height.  The Toro bushing is .178" higher than the Cub. So a simple spacer would be required or just press out the bushings and swap.

 

Note this 5xi two stage pulley is the same pulley that is used with the 5xi 48" and 52" deck pulley boxes.

 

Some Pics - Old Pulley on Left

 

Hope this helps someone down the road.

1.jpg.17f3b5452e7ef2bd01e9231163e3bd9a.jpg2.jpg.10eac144b64f9636d4338c2446314879.jpg4.jpg.344e3df352c31563dc91746367d63380.jpg3.jpg.824e51a57f05b1814a17b755daf01299.jpg

 
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:handgestures-thumbupright: Look to be drillable welds on the CC pulley as well! Bushing swap less than a minute!

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29 minutes ago, WHX14 said:

:handgestures-thumbupright: Look to be drillable welds on the CC pulley as well! Bushing swap less than a minute!

 

Looks like spot welds, but I don't think so.  Probably pressure marks from a device to hold the two halves together in alignment while they are welded around the circumference at the root of the Vee.

 

Agreed, a bushing swap is the best solution.  I'm going to order 3 more pulleys and do just that.

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1 minute ago, Kurt-NEPA said:

are welded around the circumference

LOL ...oh no not the dreaded welded pulleys! For that price yeah a couple for the shelf.

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1 minute ago, WHX14 said:

LOL ...oh no not the dreaded welded pulleys! For that price yeah a couple for the shelf.

 

That is what I'm thinking.  I've burnt up two these pulleys on my 48" deck already and maybe a few more on the two stage.  At $23 each from fleabay, I can afford a few extras.

 

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