Engine stalls when warm.

[sscotsman 186]

Hey everyone,

I recently posted about my new (to me) Toro RER

 

 

It's a Toro 832 RER, model 56145.

Based on the serial series, 700xxxx, I determined its a 1987 model.

 

Im using it for leaf pickup. Its stalling when warm, after about 10 minutes of use. It stalls, then simply will not start again until it sits for 20 minutes or so and cools down..then it starts again, runs 5 or 10 more minutes, and stalls again.

 

After it stalled, I tried re-starting with the gas cap off..nope. so I dont think its the gas cap.

 

Gas is fresh, I installed a new fuel filter.

I have not changed the spark plug.

I have not done anything with the air filter.

 

When it runs, it runs great! Engine is smooth and strong, mows fine. It just stalls when hot, then re-starts only after a cool down. Sounds like the coil? I have never replaced a coil before, but im willing to try it.

 

Anything else I can try before I order a coil? Engine is the original 1987 8HP Briggs, I cant find a tag on the engine itself, and the Toro manual does not give the engine model, but some googling:

http://www.tractordata.com/lawn-tractors/002/3/8/2385-toro-8-32.html

says it should be a Briggs model 191707.

 

Anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks,

Scot

 

[WHX?? 50,793]

Any chance you can  ohm the coil out right after it shuts down?  Or even visually  inspect it?  Often times a coil that gets hot and opens up will have cracks in it.

 

Guys can say what they want about these RER's not being a real tractor, which is true, but I still likem. Someday I am going to pick one up, strip it down, maybe some regearing, throw some  stickers on it and use for the Mrs. for running around at tractor shows on!

[953 nut 58,108]

Not sure what type ignition it has, but if there is a condenser in the system (probably under the flywheel) that would be my first step.

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,266]

Your engine numbers are on this page. Click on the picture.

The tractor parts list you can download includes the engine parts list.

 

Garry

[oldredrider 2,553]

Should have the Magnetron coil. No points or condenser. Coils are about $15.

[Howie 899]

Just pull the plug wire and see if it is firing when that happens. Not an uncommon event with the magnetron coil. Have seen it a bunch of times 

over the years.

[sscotsman 186]

Thanks guys!

Seems very likely its the coil.

Im going to order a new one..I have never replaced one before, but it looks like an easy job..

I'll let you know how it goes!

(thanks for the manuals Garry!)

 

Scot

[WHX?? 50,793]

Your welcome Scot ...glad we could help. Replacing the coil should be easy just remember to set the correct air gap. I usually put feeler gauges between the flywheel magnets and coil legs then tighten bolts. I forget what the air gap should be but .012 come to mind. Others please correct me if wrong.

[Howie 899]

Actually Briggs says not to use the metal deeper gage to set the air gap on the Magnetron. They sold a plastic gage 

to set these. A business card will set it close enough. We had this stuff at work so I had access to the stuff.

[WHX?? 50,793]

Did you mean feeler gauge Howie? If so why does Briggs say that? The only reason I can think of offhand is plastic might fit the contour of the flywheel better?? I was taught just regular metal ones and have used them for years with no problems. I do like the business card thing in a pinch.

[Howie 899]

Yes that is what I meant. I do not remember exactly anymore why they said that. I used to go to the Briggs 

update schools with father-in-law years ago. I thought it had to do with the Magnetron makeup. I actually

have one with Tecumseh and  part number on it. A piece of microfiche card works too.

[Spareparts 85]

I use the brass feeler gauge, but in the field I have used note paper folded over and it works well

the steel feller gauges seem to stick to the magnets on the flywheel, maybe that is their reason.

[Fordiesel69 267]

I always used the brass feeler guage.  But as mentioned above, a business card, brown paper bag (2 layers), or a piece of regular paper 3-4 layers thick should be just fine.  It is no doubt a coil problem!  I have changed lots of small briggs coils and in this case would NOT pay for factory coils if the china ones are cheap.  The factory ones are junk now.....  A shame for sure..

[sscotsman 186]

I got the new coil! (It took 10 days to arrive from Amazon)  

Genuine Briggs coil. Got it installed, wasnt hard! Used a business card to set the gap.

 

Fired it up! Started great..ran great! For 15 minutes..then stalled out again, same as before.  so it seems the coil isnt the culprit afterall.

 

I was planning to change the sparkplug, but didnt, because:

I got the Toro spark plug number from a manual posted in this thread, 

 

Toro part number 293918

 

I took that number to a local OPE Toro dealer, the guy looked it up and gave me:

 

Champion spark plug 868 RJ19LM.

 

which I just assumed was correct.

Just now, after I replaced the coil, I went to replace the spark plug, and the spark plug in the machine is not the same as the new one! The one in the machine is a:

 

CJ8Y

 

Noticabely smaller than the new one i bought. Not knowing which one was correct, I didnt replace it with the new one, and put back the old CJ8Y. Thats the one it came with when I bought it, and its the one installed when the engine is having the stalling problem.

 

Could the CJ8Y be the wrong plug? And if so, could it cause the stalling issue?

 

This might be a clue, but if it is, I dont know how to read it! When it stalled out just now, after the new coil was installed, I tried to re-start it seconds later..the engine would only start with the choke in the "cold start, full choke" position. It wouldnt start in the "warm start" position. When it did start in the "cold start" position, the engine would run for about 5 seconds only, surge heavily during those 5 seconds, then stall...it wasnt surging at all when it was running normally during the 15 minutes before stalling...does that mean anything to anyone?

 

Things tried:

 

New fuel filter installed.

Fresh gas.

New coil installed.

Tried re-starting with gas cap off: no difference.

Air filter is not new, but fairly clean. (I tried to buy a new air filter at the Toro dealer, but they didnt have one in stock.)

 

Things not tried:

 

Possibly wrong spark plug?

Carb not yet messed with, not disassembled or cleaned.

 

Machine runs great for 15 minutes, then stalls. Wont start again while hot. Requires a 30 min cool down, will then start again, run normally again for 10 minutes or so, then stall again when hot..

 

Suggestions for what to try next?

Thanks,

Scot

 

 

 

 

Edited October 21, 2017 by sscotsman

[Howie 899]

The J19LM is what Briggs specifies for that engine. Used t call for a CJ8 but not the CJ8Y. I think that may be

the extended tip plug. Next time you run until it stops take the gas cap off and see if it will run. A plugged vent

Will only allow it to run for a short time.

[sscotsman 186]

18 minutes ago, Howie said:

The J19LM is what Briggs specifies for that engine. Used t call for a CJ8 but not the CJ8Y. I think that may be

the extended tip plug. Next time you run until it stops take the gas cap off and see if it will run. A plugged vent

Will only allow it to run for a short time.

I tried that..gas cap. I forgot to add it to the list! ill edit my post.

 

So the CJ8Y is the wrong spark plug! Interesting..

I'll install the new one then..

could the wrong plug cause the stalling issue? Or wouldnt that matter?

 

Thanks,

Scot

Edited October 21, 2017 by sscotsman

[R. L. Addison 299]

Try checking valve clearance. Sometimes parts grow with heat like like plants with fertilizer. Some hyd. valves depend on this to function correctly,

[sscotsman 186]

19 hours ago, R. L. Addison said:

Try checking valve clearance. Sometimes parts grow with heat like like plants with fertilizer. Some hyd. valves depend on this to function correctly,

 

Thanks R.L., 

Hopefully it wont need to go that far! because I have no clue how to do that..I have never actually seen a valve in person, much less checked its clearance! But I will learn how to do that if I need to..

 

Today im going to try two more things:

1. Replace the spark plug..then run it and see if it still stalls when hot. If yes:

2. Disassable and clean the carb.

 

I was doing more internet reading on this issue last night, and came across two more potential causes..I found an old forum post on another forum, discussing stalling when hot,  where someone said the fuel line shouldnt be too close to the engine..but no more details. And, I found out there are potentially two types of fuel filters for riding mowers and garden tractors, one fuel filter type for machines with a fuel pump, and a different filter for machines without a fuel pump.

 

my Toro does not have a fuel pump, its gravity fed..im using this filter:

 

 

And, its right on top of the muffler! Could either of those, filter style or filter/gas line placement, be a factor in my stalling issue?

 

 

Thanks,

Scot

Edited October 22, 2017 by sscotsman

[AMC RULES 37,147]

 From a common sense standpoint...

...isn't there something about the placement of your filter that just screams WRONG?  

Just sayin'  

[sscotsman 186]

2 hours ago, AMC RULES said:

 From a common sense standpoint...

 

...isn't there something about the placement of your filter that just screams WRONG?  

Just sayin'  

 

At first, no, not at all..

Toro put the carb right next to the muffler, and they put the fuel line right on top of the muffler..and the fuel filter I replaced was already in that spot, (I bought it with a filter already there, I just replaced it with a new one) and its a spot easy to access. At first glace, for someone not fully educated in engine troubleshooting, it seems a very logical and natural spot for the fuel filter.  I had no reason to suspect that wasnt the correct location..

 

 except! for the heat from the muffler! Which I didnt consider could a potential issue until now..where is the fuel filter supposed to go then? Probably under the gas tank?

 

In retrospect, I can now see how it "seems wrong" but that wasnt immediately obvious to me..with little experience, I had no reason to suspect it was wrong.

 

But its a good thing to know! Thanks for the tip..I'll move it! And just replace the entire fuel line while im at it..

 

Thanks,

Scot

Edited October 22, 2017 by sscotsman

[sscotsman 186]

Woo hoo! Its fixed! 

I just ran it 45 minutes, no stalling!

 

The culprit was either the spark plug, or the fuel filter, im not sure which, because I replaced them at the same time, then did the test run. It seems more likely it was the spark plug though, since it was old, and the wrong type! See post #14 for the spark plug numbers. I installed the correct Champion spark plug 868 RJ19LM.

 

I went out today to Lowes looking for a new fuel filter and fuel line. They had the filter, but no fuel tubing. So then I also tried a nearby Walmart and Tractor supply..no tubing!  and the OPE shops are closed on Sundays, so I installed the new filter with the old tubing.

 

First pic below is the "bad" filter I did have..bad position, and possibly meant for tractors with a fuel pump:

 

(Although I think that filter was probably fine, other than location..I have been using the same type on my 1964 WH 854 for years with no issues)

 

 

The new filter, which specifically says "for engines without a fuel pump" :

 

 

New filter in place under the gas tank:

 

 

And the new configuration above the muffler :

 

 

After those two updates, spark plug and filter, stalling when hot is fixed!

Thanks for the help everyone, much appreciated! 

Scot

 

[AMC RULES 37,147]

 Looks much better...

congrats on your success. 

[Howie 899]

The tube over the fuel line as you have it is correct. Someone put the filter there, not really a good idea.

I don't remember if a fuel filter was ever put in the line originally or not. Someone mentioned hydraulic 

lifters, these do my have those. To adjust the valves one must pull the head and remove valves and grind

end of valve for clearance.

Oh, glad you got it running!