520 H don't turn over

[new horse 44]

need ideas, my 520h has a occasional no turn/over issue, sometimes when i get on it turns and starts perfectly, other times when i turn the key there is nothing, no click, nothing, sometimes I'll get a click click click like a dead battery. The times when i turn the key and get nothing, if I have the lights on, when I turn the key to the start position, the lights will dim just a little, then return to full brightness when i release the key. I've replaced the battery with a more powerful one, cleaned battery cables and grounds. I've just looking for a direction to head, I don't want to start just replacing parts. I'm wondering if it might be one of the "safety switches", but I'm thinking its the starter/solenoid.  Thanks for any advice!!

[Ed Kennell 42,106]

Look for a bad /burned connection  in the fuse blocks. the white multipin  molex connector and all terminal connections.    A lot of the time, simply unplugging and replugging all the connections several times will clean them enough to solve the problem.

[953 nut 60,219]

Glad to hear you cleaned the wire terminals and grounds, they cause a bunch of problems. We will systematically use a jumper cable to take the place of components and try to find the defective one.  Take a jumper from the battery + to the starter and it should turn over. If it won't then use another jumper from the battery - to ground and try. Next run the jumper from the Battery + to the solenoid on the side that goes to the starter, once again it should turn over. Now move the jumper to the battery side of the solenoid and turn the key and the starter should turn over. Take a small wire from the battery + to the small terminal on the solenoid and see if it spins the starter. Having done these tests post your results and we can probably pick out the faulty component.

[new horse 44]

i will do this tomorrow! and report results

[new horse 44]

sorry i didn't get back faster, have been busy!!, well, i went out to cut the grass and of course the 520 wouldn't turn over, absolutely nothing, put battery charger on thinking new battery was bad, still nothing, lights work, and they dim a little when I turn key to start but no engine activity, when i jumped to 2 larger terminals on the black solenoid it turned and started right up, I've heard some talk that some of these have 2 large and 1 small term. mine has 2 large and 2 small term., 1 of the small term. grounds right to the frame. there is also a solenoid on the starter, what is the purpose of having 2?? Obviously it needs a new solenoid, I guess I'm just looking for someone to agree with me that, that's the problem.

[953 nut 60,219]

35 minutes ago, new horse said:

Obviously it needs a new solenoid

Not necessarily, use a small jumper wire from the battery to the small terminal that is not grounded. If the solenoid is good this will cause it to close and crank over the starter.

[new horse 44]

do i run the wire from the positive or neg side of the battery?

[953 nut 60,219]

Sorry, forgot to say the positive side.

1 hour ago, new horse said:

positive or neg side

 

[new horse 44]

thanks, i figured, but just want to be certain

[WVHillbilly520H 10,376]

Check out my "Good Friday 520" clean up post, the P.O. had "jumped" the ignition switch to the starter because of a bad(missing actuator) clutch/neutral safety switch but also check the seat and PTO switches and if you haven't already find and download the demystification guide and correct year owners manual/wiring diagrams this helped me slowly but surely check and verify each component in the circuit,Jeff. BTW 520s are in my opinion the best of the later classic series .

[new horse 44]

I really like my 520, but unfortunately, I was very unfamiliar with Wheel horse's and 520's to know that the PO and REALLY rigged this machine just to get rid of it. I like the power of the big Onan, but its beginning to remind me of why i wanted to replace my ancient craftsman GT II  18/44, it seems like every time I use the 520, something is broke or don't work, and its not the easiest to get parts for.  I'm committed to it for this year, but I may be looking to replace it with something newer and more dependable. (I'm beginning to wonder if I shouldn't have just replaced my electric PTO clutch on my old tractor and continued to use it, I had already upgraded it to a cast iron front axle, new tires, battery and belts, it still starts like a champ, but she's just alittle smokey!!!!!

[WVHillbilly520H 10,376]

I bought my 1st 520 (1997 anniversary model) brand new in 1998 so I didn't have all the P.O. issues but I bought this 95 in April thinking because I bought from my old original dealer I wouldn't have those issues but I was wrong as it sat outside nearly 15 years and he and his "mechanic" just did what most non mechanical people do "hack" to get by so I had my hands full for a month but I got it all fixed back like factory that's why I pointed you to my post with pictures and diagnosis and fixes just last month or so and a cheap voltage gauge replacement and then the wiring diagrams/demystification guide for your actual year really helps narrow down the circuits from the fuse box to the relays and safety switches ect...and I hate electrical/wiring issues and I slowly figured it out, don't give up and when you find yourself frustrated walk away for a while and come back clear headed and try again that's what I had to do and find your part #s through partstree then Google that and find them cheaper through eBay, Jacks, the repair clinic ect vs the dealer, Jeff.

[Kurt-NEPA 755]

Hi New Horse,

 

What year is your 520H.  Is it an 1988 or 1989?  If yes, they have what looks like two solenoids.  One on the round can on the starter and one sitting next to it and mounted on the frame.  The one on the frame is a simple HD relay and has 3 or 4 posts.  Two for light duty wires (one is ground and the other is 12V positive from the key switch S position).  The heavy duty terminals - one has the battery cable and the other has a heavy cable going to the starter.  When you key switch send 12V from the S terminal, it fires the frame mounted relay that send power to the starter.

 

When this relay on the frame is going bad, they can give the symptoms you have mentioned.  From what you have said, it appears your starter is just fine.  Stens makes an inexpensive replacement relay for the one on the frame.  Check Ebay.  They are common relays.

 

If you have a 1990 or later 520H.  The wiring system is different and there is no frame mounted relay.  To test out if you have safety switch or relay problems, run a light duty jumper from the 12V positive post on the battery to the 1/4" spade terminal (small wire) on the starter.  You will have to remove the small wire from the spade first (if my memory is good, it is a light blue wire).  You starter should fire right up a soon as you make the connection and stop when you remove the jumper.

 

 

 

 

 

[new horse 44]

mine is a 1988 model. I never stop being amazed at the depth of knowledge the folks in this group freely share! the relay on my 520 does have 2 large and 2 small terminals. I'm going to replace this relay, i'm now certain this is the bad part.

[Texas Todd 1,025]

I am having similar issues with a 1997 520-H. will spin if I jump from the small connector on starter solenoid to positive side of starter. Nothing with the key. When its spins I am not getting any spark either.

Can someone post a picture of this second solenoid? I am missing it I guess.

Thanks!

[Kurt-NEPA 755]

35 minutes ago, TVR said:

I am having similar issues with a 1997 520-H. will spin if I jump from the small connector on starter solenoid to positive side of starter. Nothing with the key. When its spins I am not getting any spark either.

Can someone post a picture of this second solenoid? I am missing it I guess.

Thanks!

 

The 1997 520H does not have the second solenoid that is described above.  On yours, there is a circuit that goes from the S terminal on the ignition switch through the PTO and Neutral micro-switchs and fires a relay that is located behind the engine (there are three of them there).  The relay switches battery voltage to the 1/4" spade terminal on the starter.

 

Check the De-mystify guide for the wiring diagrams - available for download in the download section.

 

My guess is that your starter relay is not firing due a bad connection in one of three places 1) Ignition switch 2) PTO switch or 3) Neutral switch.  These kind of problems are best diagnosed with a multi-meter or test light..

 

On loss of ignition, a second relay is fired from the I terminal on the ignition switch, the seat switch is on this circuit.  The relay directs battery voltage to the coil.  If there is no voltage going to the coil while cranking, then check this circuit.  If you do have voltage at the coil, I would think you have a coil, ignition module for trigger ring issue.

 

Hope this make some sense.  Studying the De-mystify guide will really help.

 

[Texas Todd 1,025]

Okay, thank you, I will check them.  So I will know what I am looking for, do the relays look like a typical automotive relay?

Disregard, I just found them on the parts list.

Edited June 16, 2016 by TVR

[Kurt-NEPA 755]

3 minutes ago, TVR said:

Okay, thank you, I will check them.  So I will know what I am looking for, do the relays look like a typical automotive relay?

 

They are typical automotive A/C relays - about 1" X 1" X 1".  If you reach in behind on the engine and below the battery you can feel them (all 3 of them).  They are hard to see.  With your hand on the relays, you can feel them fire as the ignition switch is turned.

 

BTW, these relays are common.  NAPA has them.

[Texas Todd 1,025]

When I turn the key, the relay furthest right (closest to PTO) clicks. Is there a trick to getting these out? Not a lot of room there.....Thanks! And that's the only one that clicked.....

Edited June 16, 2016 by TVR

[WVHillbilly520H 10,376]

Pull straight up while "wiggling" as best you can, I usually pull all 3 starting from the left side above the oil filter, but as simple check pull the lower dash panel below the throttle/choke levers and verify your neutral safety switch hasn't fallen apart missing the actuator tang, and check the engine wire harness "Molex" connector plug for corrosion/burnt connections,Jeff.

[Texas Todd 1,025]

Will do. Thank you! I appreciate the help!

[Texas Todd 1,025]

Replaced two of the relays and unplugged and replugged everything I could find. Fired right up! Thanks! Now to figure out the hydro issues.....It barely creeps going forward and reverse. Oil is full.

Edited June 17, 2016 by TVR

[Kurt-NEPA 755]

Good to hear you got it running.  Congrats.

 

On the hydro, I would check to make sure you have full range of motion on the cam plate (under the seat).  You should see the plate go through most of it range as you move the motion lever.  Note that there is a little excess travel on both end to allow for adjustment, so don't get concerned as it stops short.

 

 

[953 nut 60,219]

2 hours ago, TVR said:

It barely creeps going forward and reverse. Oil is full.

Is the lift working properly, if so the pump is good. Don't know but, is there a "Push Valve" on your hydro and if so is it closed?

[Texas Todd 1,025]

I found part of the issue, the brake pedal wasn't returning all the way. When I manually pull it back I get good forward speed. Reverse is still painfully slow.  Just bought this and the PO said it was using oil. Well I bet it was. Looks like I am gonna discover the pleasure of Onan ring installation .

But can't complain, it only set me back a hundo.

I printed out the adjustment instructions for the hydro, will tackle that in the morning.

The lift is going up and down, but doesn't have anything on it. But seems to moving okay.

Will have to research push valve. Not sure about that.

Edited June 17, 2016 by TVR