Steering Modification

[Eric Friedrichsen 112]

I recently rebuilt a 414-8 including re-bushing the steering gear.  I have found the tractor to be extremely heavy to stear.
I am considering modifying the 414-8 to the 520h reduction gear steering.
Can I use my existing 414-8 axle or do I have to use the swept forward 520h axle?
If I use the swept forward axle will the tire rub on the snowplow when it is angled?
Thanks for answering.
Eric 
 

[DennisThornton 4,771]

I'd be wondering why it is so hard now.  None of mine are hard to steer much less "extremely heavy" to steer, not even with a blade.  You got something heavy hanging off the front?

If not maybe you have another problem.  If you raise the front tires off the ground do you then have "one finger" steering!

[Eric Friedrichsen 112]

Thanks Dennis for answering,

With the front end of the tractor jacked up I have finger tip steering (effortless).  There is no interference in the steering system.  I even replaced the drag links with heim joints.
There are 27lb weights installed in each of the hubs of the front wheels to try to counter the side thrust of the angled plow.  I believe these are contributing to the heavy steering but as these weights are in the hubs and not hanging on the frame,  that should only affect the friction of the tire. There is nothing but the mule drive hanging off of the front..
I have 20lbs air pressure in new tubed tires (Carlisle) and this did help somewhat but the steering is still too heavy.
I considered installing a 312-8 steering wheel but it is only 1" greater on the radius than the 414-8 wheel so while it would help, the increased leverage would be relatively minor.
I have a well maintained Commando 800 with a plow and it is very easy to steer, even with a raised plow.

Eric

[MalMac 1,332]

Sounds like somethings not right, could have just enough wear that things are fighting against themselfs. As far as putting on steering reduction. I just did a 414-8 to use on my FEL. I do believe you have to use the swept axel and all the steering parts. Also yes if you use a swept axel it will hit the blade when angled. You need to extend the blade out right around 4 inches. Use the extender kit or just add the length your self by adding to the plow frame.

[Eric Friedrichsen 112]

Thanks,  That is what I needed to know about the plow.  The reason I wanted to stay with my original axle was to avoid having to buy new wheels as the 414-8 has 3/.4" spindles and the 520h has 1" spindles.  I'll have to investigate what it would take to modify the current axle to accept 520h drag links.

[JAinVA 4,636]

Eric,
    I have two 400 series WHs with 15" steering wheels and they both steer much easier than the 13" on my c101.One inch of radius increase in my opinion will help you.
When you grease the spindles at the axle do you take the weight off the front end?If you do that more grease will go to the spots that see the most wear and load.Give that a try.I agee that something is amiss.Luck JAinVA

[pacer 3,177]

Interesting .... I have two C-175's - virtually identical even same new tires. One steers with ease and the other is like a tank! I've taken the steering mechanisms out of the hard one 3 times trying to pin point the problem/difference and -- ?? I rebuilt both, sand blasting and replacing all bushing, etc. A real puzzle!!!

[Eric Friedrichsen 112]

Thanks JA in VA for the greasing advice for the king pins.  I have not been jacking up the tractor when greasing them so I'll try it and see if it helps.

Eric

[Forest Road 594]

Several members have purchased thrust washers and bearings to place in between the axles and spindles. Cuts down on friction. You'll have to grind a bit off top of the axle so the c-clip can be fastened. Haven't gotten around to doing this mod myself.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mikekot3 93]

Have you greased the steering linkage at the base of the steering column at the zerk fitting that is only visible when the wheel is only turn to one extreme direction?

[slammer302 2,156]

I did what Forest Road is talking about and it did help some i can notice a big difference between my C-121 and 314H i guess thats why i love using my smaller older horses like Lawn Ranger and 502 so much easier to maneuver but sometimes you just need something bigger  

[bds1984 1,499]

The only issue I see with using only the gear reduction steering gear is the holes are larger where the tie rods attach and the non-gear reduction tie rods are a different length.  When I initially installed only the swept axle on my C165 I had to make up a plate to attach the 520 tie rods to my C165's original steering gear because the 520's were shorter, I believe. 

[shallowwatersailor 3,214]

Thanks Dennis for answering,


There are 27lb weights installed in each of the hubs of the front wheels to try to counter the side thrust of the angled plow.  I believe these are contributing to the heavy steering but as these weights are in the hubs and not hanging on the frame,  that should only affect the friction of the tire. There is nothing but the mule drive hanging off of the front..
I have 20lbs air pressure in new tubed tires (Carlisle) and this did help somewhat but the steering is still too heavy.
I considered installing a 312-8 steering wheel but it is only 1" greater on the radius than the 414-8 wheel so while it would help, the increased leverage would be relatively minor.
I have a well maintained Commando 800 with a plow and it is very easy to steer, even with a raised plow.

Eric

I think you problem is the weights on each wheel. You have increased the friction of the tire. Did you put turfs on or a ribbed tire? A ribbed tire (3-rib or 5-rib) will help with direction control. Raising the pressure to 20 psi is helpful.

A larger steering wheel will also help. Even a 1" increase will be noticed.  

[Eric Friedrichsen 112]

Thanks everyone for your contributions to the "heavy 414-8 steering" discussion.  I believe after reading everyone's ideas that the
extra weight of the 414-8 on the front steering spindles is the main contributer to the heavy steering.  When I rebuilt the 414 I rebuilt
the steering system also and installed new bushings on the horizontal steering shaft. I also installed a grease fitting to grease the aft
bushing on the horizontal shaft (this bushing does not get grease from the zerk that supplies the steering sector.  Forest Rd has a good
idea for decreasing friction by installing a frictionless thrust bearing between the spindle and axle.  I am going to investigate doing
this.  I agree with slammer 302.  My bulletproof Commando 800 with its reliable 8hp Kohler is a pleasure to use in comparison
to this 414-8. Its problem is it just can't push a bigger plow.

From readings everyone's contributions I am going to: 1. Install reduction gear steering and keep my original axle.  2. Install a 312-8, 15" steering wheel.
3. Install frictionless bearings between the axle and spindle.

Thanks to all of you for your help.

Eric
 

[slammer302 2,156]

I know you would probably not want to go this far but i put sum skinny tires and wheels from a 657 on my B-100 and it turns very easy even with a snow plow on it but i took the snow plow off and put it on a hydro horse 

[squonk 43,821]

I have 25 lb weights and filled tires on my 1267. It's a bear to turn unless the tractor is moving now

[DennisThornton 4,771]

Thanks Dennis for answering,

With the front end of the tractor jacked up I have finger tip steering (effortless).  There is no interference in the steering system.  I even replaced the drag links with heim joints.
There are 27lb weights installed in each of the hubs of the front wheels to try to counter the side thrust of the angled plow.  I believe these are contributing to the heavy steering but as these weights are in the hubs and not hanging on the frame,  that should only affect the friction of the tire. There is nothing but the mule drive hanging off of the front..
I have 20lbs air pressure in new tubed tires (Carlisle) and this did help somewhat but the steering is still too heavy.
I considered installing a 312-8 steering wheel but it is only 1" greater on the radius than the 414-8 wheel so while it would help, the increased leverage would be relatively minor.
I have a well maintained Commando 800 with a plow and it is very easy to steer, even with a raised plow.

Eric

Eric, you've done most all I would have thought of but I think you've gotten more good info from this crew!  Adding weights helps grip would would necessarily make for heavier steering.  I have heard good things about adding thrust bearings but never done it.  Certainly a larger steering wheel would help.  I think that's where my first efforts would be.  Cheap, easy, quick and guaranteed to help!  Maybe that's all you need?
 

[Wishin4a416 2,191]

I have set my toe in to a 1/4 inch on 2 of my tractors and it has really helped. My 312 and my 160. Almost like power steering. I would check toe in first.

[can whlvr 994]

I used weights on one of my 414,son the front,it was a lot harder to steer,now I just run old roller chain around the tire,works great

[Eric Friedrichsen 112]

The skinnier tires make some sense as you would have a higher psi on the pavement and less tendancy for the tires to float over the snow.

I'll also try increasing the toe in.

Thanks,
Eric.