Ignition on C-195

[bo dawg 518]

Is there a way to test an ignition to make sure its good or not? Its acting funny, I have power going to everything except coil, (witch is why theres nothing when try to start), lights and hr meter. All fuses are good all safety's are by past except PTO and its good. I check everything I could think of, so got to be simple.

[bo dawg 518]

Ok I learned else where to check for continuty on the switch. So in the off position I have no continuity on any combination of post. Now in the run position I do have it on all but the start post. With tester on ign and start post.. turn key to start position and yes I have continuity, and also on Battery and Start post too. So is that correct you dont have continuity in the off position at all??

But now the other problem is there's 2 hot wires coming into the ign plug and not sure why. Battery and seat switch is hot. Looking at the C series 1982-83 wiring diagram theres the hot coming from bat to ammeter to PTO switch with the same lead going to seat sitch while on other side of PTO post leading to the Battery. Now to me that seems why I have 2 hots at the ign switch according to the diagram and my tractor. ????

[bo dawg 518]

Wheres all the electrical guys at?

[Save Old Iron 1,571]

there are two ways for battery voltage to enter the ignition switch

 

thru the PTO (red) on the B terminal

 

and apparently thru the seat switch (purple) on the R terminal.

 

How is the seat switched bypassed ?  wires shorted together or separated and insulated from one another ?

Edited May 13, 2015 by Save Old Iron

[Save Old Iron 1,571]

The switch "map" for the tractor shows these terminals connected together in the RUN position

 

 

 

In the OFF position - no connections between any terminals

 

 

 

And in the START position

 

[Save Old Iron 1,571]

Ignition switch appears to test OK

 

I guess I will get double duty this week from the diagram below. Tell me which test point (1 to 5) you have battery voltage present

 

 

[bo dawg 518]

 

Hey SOI I was hoping you would chime in. Sorry I'm at work and just check the post.

 

If you can see in the picture (sorry its from phone)

My wires are a bit different than your diagram, all wires black, going by memory. 

 

Coming from the battery, is the wire lead to ammeter, then out to PTO switch (2 prong), then comes out other post of PTO to the B post of ign switch. Also a 2nd wire from ammeter feeds to regulator. Now here's the problem, there's also a wire coming off the PTO to the seat switch which is hot and comes back from seat to A post of ign, giving it 2 hots going into ign. The I post of ign go's to the coil, from the R post go's to lights and hr meter. (which cant get power to). Then from S post go's to solenoid.

 

The seat switch is by-passed with a jumper wire with connectors.

The pedal switch is by-passed too just wired together and soldered.

 

When key is in the off position the B post and A post on ign is hot, the PTO post are hot, the ammeter post are hot. Fuses are good. And nothing on I and R post.   

But then when key is in run position everything else go's dead. 

 

Funny thing is this is the way it has been since I have owned it and has ran well till I took apart the fender pan and gas tank to clean all the crud out from under and around.

Edited May 13, 2015 by bo dawg

[bo dawg 518]

For the most part the wiring all looks good, doesn't look all hacked up other than the switches by-pass. The wires have small white numbers but cant read all of them.

 

Also cant remember if I had power at the solenoid from S post of ign when key turned to start or not. I will have to check tonight.

But according to you maps I think ign switch is good.

Edited May 13, 2015 by bo dawg

[Save Old Iron 1,571]

there's also a wire coming off the PTO to the seat switch which is hot

 

yes - wire TO the seat switch should be HOT at all times - the wire FROM the seat switch to the ignition switch ® terminal should be hot when operator is in the seat. If the seat switch is bypassed by connecting both seat switch wires together, obviously both wires will be HOT at all times.

 

 

and comes back from seat to A post of ign,

 

this may be an issue??

 

The wiring diagram shows the seat switch wire going to the "SEAT SWITCH" terminal of the ignition switch. This terminal, by process of elimination, has to be the "R" terminal on the ignition switch.

 

 

giving it 2 hots going into ign. 

 

 

 

 

 

The I post of ign go's to the coil,

 

OK

 

from the R post go's to lights and hr meter. (which cant get power to).

 

This doesn't make sense. As I said before, the seat switch wire shows on the schematic as going to the "R" terminal - and doesn't it make sense the "accessories" like lights, etc should come off the "A" terminal?

 

 

Then from S post go's to solenoid.

 

OK too.

 

When key is in the off position the B post and A post on ign is hot, the PTO post are hot, the ammeter post are hot. Fuses are good. And nothing on I and R post.   

 

According the to schematic - and logically - the "B" and the "R" terminals should be HOT. The "A" accessory terminal should not be HOT until the ignition switch is in the RUN position. The "A" terminal should be considered OUTPUT for power not and INPUT.

 

"B" is power in

"R" is power in

"I" is power out to coil

"A" is power out to accessories

"S" is power out to starter relay

 

 

 

Funny thing is this is the way it has been since I have owned it and has ran well till I took apart the fender pan and gas tank to clean all the crud out from under and around.

 

I can believe the wiring to the seat switch could have been disturbed when you did this. I would suggest double checking the "bypass" for the seat switch and the wiring to and from the switch.

 

 

I have attached an enhanced section of your phone pic of the ignition switch wiring. They way the ammeter and ignition switch terminals appear to be corroded , I can imagine some gremlins might be hiding in the ignition switch female terminals. At the very least, I would swapout the 5 corroded female terminals in the ignition switch connector and recheck the seat safety switch bypass connection and wiring by the gas tank.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Save Old Iron

[bo dawg 518]

scan0001.pdf

 

I put a picture of the safety seat by pass, I put new connections on jumper wire but still the same. It's hot coming back. I also for kicks show a picture of the pedal safety by pass.

 

I downloaded a wiring diagram out of the wheel horse manual of what I'm going by showing the R post is for lights and A post is for seat switch. But I agree with you thinking they should be the opposite.

But this is how the tractor was and everything was working before, lights and all. This is killing me.

 

I can cut the ign plug off and go with new individual connectors, I took some fine sand paper and cleaned up the prongs of the ign switch the other night so their good. I know the ammeter looks cruddy but it gets good voltage in and out but I can try to clean if they don't break off. Lol!

 

Question... why then when I turn key to run position everything gos dead? even dead at the ammeter post, kinda like going backwards.

Edited May 14, 2015 by bo dawg

[Save Old Iron 1,571]

I know the ammeter looks cruddy but it gets good voltage in and out.

 

What tool are we using to indicate the presence of voltage?

 

multimeter ?

incandescent test lite ?

LED test light ?

[Save Old Iron 1,571]

 

 

Question... why then when I turn key to run position everything gos dead? even dead at the ammeter post, kinda like going backwards.

The answer is most likely "ghost voltage".

This curve ball can be thrown at you if you are troubleshooting power circuits with a multimeter or an LED test light

A multimeter or an LED test light draw almost no current thru the wiring under test so they will indicate voltage present under a "no load" or "non-burdened" condition. A corroded terminal can still allow enough current flow to fool a multimeter or LED test light.An incandescent tester is harder to fool. The actual electrics of the tractor will not be fooled - and that's why "good voltages" go dead under real life use conditions.

 

We are gong to be heading back to the fuse / ammeter / PTO wiring connections to find out where it "goes dead" in the RUN position.

I will wait for your answer as to what type of tool you have used so far to check for HOT wiring.

[bo dawg 518]

Well not sure what you call it but I primarily just use a cheap test lite, the one that has a wire with a clip you clamp on to ground and stick the point on the wires to see if there's current and a lite will come on. But I have used the multi meter to read a voltage or check continuity. I get 12.5 off the battery and same on all points of connection . 

Edited May 14, 2015 by bo dawg

[Save Old Iron 1,571]

scan0001.pdf

 

I downloaded a wiring diagram out of the wheel horse manual of what I'm going by showing the R post is for lights and A post is for seat switch. But I agree with you thinking they should be the opposite.

But this is how the tractor was and everything was working before, lights and all. This is killing me.

 

 

I see the confusion. The pictorial of the ignition switch does show the "A" and "R -seat switch' terminals reversed from a real life 103990 switch.

 

Given the tractor has worked properly in the past with the wiring CONFIGURATION as is, we need to shift gears and investigate the battery to switch wiring QUALITY.

[bo dawg 518]

Battery to ign switch correct? Should I run a jumper wire from batt straight to battery post of ign or something? Plus I can cut off the ign plug and wire separate back on to ign post.

[Save Old Iron 1,571]

Well not sure what you call it but I primarily just use a cheap test lite, the one that has a wire with a clip you clamp on to ground and stick the point on the wires to see if there's current. But I have used the multi meter to read a voltage or check continuity. I get 12.5 off the battery and same on all points of connection . 

 

Using the incandescent test lite

 

ignition switch in RUN

 

retest the points #1 thu #5 outlined in the earlier post - the light will either be dim or out at one of those points.

[Save Old Iron 1,571]

Battery to ign switch correct? Should I run a jumper wire from batt straight to battery post of ign or something? Plus I can cut off the ign plug and wire separate back on to ign post.

 

running a jumper from the battery + to the ignition coil + should get you running until we find the real fault.

[bo dawg 518]

I can do it again tonight but I didn't notice any dim light anytime. I can say that Point 1 at battery was good, point 2 I don't remember if I checked in run position or not. Point 3, 4, and 5 are dead in run position.  

[bo dawg 518]

running a jumper from the battery + to the ignition coil + should get you running until we find the real fault.

Jump wire from batt + to the coil +? or run to the B post on ign switch? Sorry just want to make sure Im on the same page with you. Lol 

[Save Old Iron 1,571]

I can do it again tonight but I didn't notice any dim light anytime. I can say that Point 1 at battery was good, point 2 I don't remember if I checked in run position or not. Point 3, 4, and 5 are dead in run position.  

Then the issue is before the ammeter. I would not overlook the fuse holder.

[Save Old Iron 1,571]

Jump wire from batt + to the coil +? or run to the B post on ign switch? Sorry just want to make sure Im on the same page with you. Lol 

For testing purposes, either way will work.

 

Connecting the jumper to the coil + may be more convenient. Remove the jumper to stop the engine.

[bo dawg 518]

Then the issue is before the ammeter. I would not overlook the fuse holder.

Oh my gosh, SOI you are da man!

 

That was the only fuse I did not physically pull out to look at. I figured it was good since I was getting power on the other side of it.

Dang it, I thought about pulling it out the other night just to look... heck I did so with the others! but then I thought why? its working. So when I tried pulling it out it wouldn't budge, I had to take a plyer to it and it broke coming out. It had melted and bonded inside the fuse holder.

 

Wow I feel so stupid! I knew it would be something simple but just couldnt get it, was looking farther down the road.

 

Thank you so much for walking through it with me S O I.

Edited May 15, 2015 by bo dawg

[bo dawg 518]

 

Here is pic of the melted fuse. sorry a bit blurry.

[Save Old Iron 1,571]

Very good. I would suggest the true problem is corrosion within the fuse holder and the holder should be replaced with a 30 amp version.

 

I will put together an explanation on why we were fooled by the voltmeter readings and post back later this weekend.

[Save Old Iron 1,571]

I still find the ignition switch wiring / schematic worth looking into. Something doesn't make sense there. Maybe later.