Metal Fatigue (cracks) in Hoodstand Components - 416-H

[Martin 2,130]

Bob, i see a few causes for the crack issue....

 

the whole hood stand area is simply under engineered. the upper steering shaft issue with no decent mounting, the thin sheet metal, the fact that the only thing that keeps everything 'square' is the 1/4-20 screws in the lower dash plate, transmission/brake tunnel cover and front cover underneath the battery. it is an area that gets a lot of sideways movement......

 

i have been happy with the final result with using a decent mount for the upper steering shaft where it passes through the upper dash section, welding up all the areas that have cracked (yours are some of the worst I've seen on the dash pieces) and making sure all the parts that make up the whole assembly are tightly bolted together. the whole assembly is strong enough when everything is how it should be, but how many tractors have all of us bought from previous owners that have neglected the small areas that have ended up causing bigger issues?

 

this isn't normal with the hydro tractors, but on the 8 speeds the lower dash plate (with the gauges) only has two 1/4-20 screws holding that cover, i usually drill out the cover for the extra 2. the holes are already in the hood stand and it just makes sense to have 4 holding it together instead of the two to help with the side load issue......

 

 

one other thing that I've tried to do with all my tractors is not to 'pull' sideways on the steering wheel when getting on and off. with a bit of practice you can come up with a way to get on and off them, limiting the sideways stress on the hood stand and seat pan areas. you can't avoid stressing those areas if you use the tractor on inclines etc. but years and years of getting on and off pulling sideways on the steering wheel and seat areas (with all their build in leverage to the tractor sheetmetal) has got to take its toll on these areas......

 

i bet you didn't realize before starting this newer model tractor that they are just as much work as the older ones? most of the time they are more work because they weren't built to last longer like the older stuff in my opinion. that doesn't mean that they can't be made into something really special though. i have a soft spot for my older ones but the gt1848 and the 90's 400 series tractors i have are my favorites for seat time and working them. they are just a comfortable tractor to spend time on......

Edited December 27, 2014 by Martin

[rmaynard 14,863]

After I fix the cracks, I am going to see what can be done to strengthen that area. I'm sure that I can do something to the under-engineered hood stand and dash panel to make them a bit stronger.

[Martin 2,130]

some sort of diagonal cross bracing would definitely help, maybe even a strategically placed flat directly behind the gauges cover and welded to the flange on the hoodstand. this could be done on the front section too. just need to make sure that they aren't in the way of anything else. the upper steering shaft support is one area you need to look at while its all apart too. I've used a wh 6472 flange bearing (as have many others) to strengthen that weak area. the 90s hydro is complicated there though with the column levers coming through, but other members have come up with solutions for this......

Edited December 27, 2014 by Martin

[rmaynard 14,863]

 ...but other members have come up with solutions for this......

 

And that is what this forum is all about.

 

With the suggestions that you, Brian, Don, Bailey and others have provided, along with some of my own ideas, I think this problem can be solved.

[KyBlue 652]

And that is what this forum is all about.

 

With the suggestions that you, Brian, Don, Bailey and others have provided, along with some of my own ideas, I think this problem can be solved.

 

And we look forward to following along with you as you find a solution to the problem. I'm sure that my 418 has the cracks, at least has them starting. Liking the idea of welding in some round rod in the corners but also like the thought of adding some bracing too.

[Don1977 604]

They used too thin metal on the hood stands. I'm not sure of the year model of mine. I guess 89 or 90 as it had the damper bracket and that side was not broken.

[Eric C 109]

The cause for the hood stand cracks....could be that the PTO Is the culprit; especially if the PTO is adjusted too tight. To see what I mean, engage the PTO slowly without the engine running and see all the movement in the hood stand area (and engine).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited December 27, 2014 by Eric C

[BOWTIE 226]

HAVE YOU GUYS SEEN THE HEADLIGHT SUPPORT BRACE CRACK. ON THE 300-400-500 SERIES ON UNDERSIDE OF THE HOOD. IT STARTS WITH A BLACK LINE IN THE RED PAINT THEN IT SPLITS ON THE LOWER LEFT SIDE FIRST. I THINK IT TO MUCH HOOD WOBBLE AND PUSHING ON THE HOOD TO ROLL IT AROUND.

BOWTIE

[Callen 64]

I think gussets in the fender/fuel tank support bracket  area would be a good place to start. The lack of flat washers every where doesn't help either.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Callen

[Pollack Pete 2,273]

The cause for the hood stand cracks....could be that the PTO Is the culprit; especially if the PTO is adjusted too tight. To see what I mean, engage the PTO slowly without the engine running and see all the movement in the hood stand area (and engine).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My own opinion.......I agree with Eric C.I try to keep the PTO rod as loose as possible and still have my attachments operate properly.I have a C-175 that I recently bought.The PTO rod is adjusted so tight that the dash flexes about 1/2 inch when the PTO is engaged.Plus,the rubber mounted engines moves about the same amount.

[Don1977 604]

HAVE YOU GUYS SEEN THE HEADLIGHT SUPPORT BRACE CRACK. ON THE 300-400-500 SERIES ON UNDERSIDE OF THE HOOD. IT STARTS WITH A BLACK LINE IN THE RED PAINT THEN IT SPLITS ON THE LOWER LEFT SIDE FIRST. I THINK IT TO MUCH HOOD WOBBLE AND PUSHING ON THE HOOD TO ROLL IT AROUND.

BOWTIE

They added a brace at the front of the hood in the late 80's, that may be the reason.

[rmaynard 14,863]

Just spent the last three hours disassembling the tractor enough to remove the hoodstand. Got it off, but could not get the PTO handle out. I have not found a way to remove the plastic knob.

 

 

Does anyone know of a way to remove this knob without damaging it? I've tried heating it, but that doesn't seem to help. Can't get it too hot or it will melt. The plastic is too rigid to slip anything between it and the rod.

 

Suggestions are welcomed. 

[Martin 2,130]

Bob, a small pickle fork that you would use for breaking apart automotive steering joints is what i use for those handles. its got to be a nice fit between the forks and the steel pto handle. place the fork up against the bottom of the handle and hit the fork from the bottom up. like i said make sure the distance between the forks is almost the same as the diameter of the steel part of the pto handle. you want it to be snug as possible so when you hit the fork it doesn't ride up onto the plastic handle and damage it. the more surface area contact on the bottom of the plastic handle the better.......

Edited December 29, 2014 by Martin

[Martin 2,130]

you can also fashion or fabricate a steel washer to fit tightly against the bottom of the handle and put the fork against that to avoid damage. a slot cut in from one side of the washer to allow it to get where it needs to go. those 96 and up handles look to have a bit more meat on them than the 95 and earlier ones.....

Edited December 29, 2014 by Martin

[JimD 3,345]

Bob, if your going to use heat, don't heat the outside of the handle. Heat the rod near, but not too close to the handle. It's the inside of the handle that needs to expand and release from the rod. In many applications plastic handles are installed by heating the rod and pressing it into the handle. Even if it is glued it would take heat inside the handle to break the glue bond.

[buckrancher 2,673]

Bob take a jewelers screwdriver and slide it between the rod and handle then spray some penetrating oil in you may need to do this 180 from each other but that should break the handle loose from the rod then

 

Brian

[rmaynard 14,863]

Bob take a jewelers screwdriver and slide it between the rod and handle then spray some penetrating oil in you may need to do this 180 from each other but that should break the handle loose from the rod then

 

Brian

 

Brian,

This knob is very hard. There is no flexibility to it. I can't get even the smallest jewelers screwdriver between the plastic and the shaft. Since I have the hoodstand off the tractor and on the bench, I have it positioned now with the bottom of the handle pointing up. I have placed a few drops of PB Blaster around the shaft, and it disappeared. So that means it is migrating down between the shaft and the knob. After I get more Blaster to soak in, I will try what Martin suggested. I'd like to salvage the knob since they are no longer available from Toro.

[rmaynard 14,863]

Okay, so I got it off. First of all, do not try to twist it. The shaft has a flat side about 2-1/2" long inside the knob, and the knob is molded with a flat side on the inside. I got PB Blaster to soak in, and it softened the glue on the strip of double-sided tape that was applied to the flat on the shaft. Then I took an old adjustable wrench and placed it around the shaft and under the bottom edge of the knob. Then I tapped the wrench. The knob moved, so I kept on tapping until it was off.

[312Hydro 473]

Just spent the last three hours disassembling the tractor enough to remove the hoodstand. Got it off, but could not get the PTO handle out. I have not found a way to remove the plastic knob.

 

PTO_handle.png

 

Does anyone know of a way to remove this knob without damaging it? I've tried heating it, but that doesn't seem to help. Can't get it too hot or it will melt. The plastic is too rigid to slip anything between it and the rod.

 

Suggestions are welcomed.

.

I took off all of the plastic "knobs" by putting an air nozzle aimed under the grip and blowing it off with air .

[rmaynard 14,863]

some sort of diagonal cross bracing would definitely help, maybe even a strategically placed flat directly behind the gauges cover and welded to the flange on the hoodstand. this could be done on the front section too. just need to make sure that they aren't in the way of anything else. the upper steering shaft support is one area you need to look at while its all apart too. I've used a wh 6472 flange bearing (as have many others) to strengthen that weak area. the 90s hydro is complicated there though with the column levers coming through, but other members have come up with solutions for this......

 

Now that I have the upper dash off, I see where I can't use the 6472 flange bearing. The holes for the motion lever and the lift lever are right where the bolts would have to go. But I will think of something else to give the steering shaft some rigidity.

 

.

I took off all of the plastic "knobs" by putting an air nozzle aimed under the grip and blowing it off with air .

That will work with something like the bicycle type grip on the old manual lift levers, but this is not like that. 

[KyBlue 652]

Glad ya got it off.

[sorekiwi 761]

The one I have is a 120 volt Lincoln. I used a friends 240 volt welder in his shop, with him making all the correct settings, and I did a good job welding some 1/4" steel. I need him to come to my shop and show me how to set up my welder to do light stuff like this.

 

My welder is a 110V Lincoln.  The settings on the chart inside the wire door will get you very close.

[JERSEYHAWG / Glenn 4,487]

Good thread. I dont have those problems because I dont have many hours on the tractor. But I will be vigilant in looking, futures.

Glenn

[Martin 2,130]

Bob, the Lincoln welder is probably much the same as i have. without going out to check i think mine is a Lincoln PRO MIG 135......

 

I'm sure with a little dialing in that it will do a decent job on any of the thin stuff on that tractor. technique, or lack of the good version of, is usually what leaves you with burnt through areas. sometimes you will chase it to get it filled good (I've chased plenty of burn through holes) but with a bunch of practice and sometimes some good work with a grinder, you will get all of what you have to fix on that hood stand looking good. i find that some practice with material the same as what you want to fix first is a good starting point. also make sure the material is clean, clean, clean. white metal is what you want, not any sign of rust. bead blasting the area you need to weld first definitely helps.

 

i also find that on, off, on ,off with the trigger and just do a series of tack welds real close together to join your cracks back together works the best. keeps the heat down and less chance of blowing through and opening that crack up into something that takes a lot more time to fill. move around on the length of the crack too, start at one end making sure the surfaces are flush and tack, then move 1/2 inch to 1 inch or so in (depending on the length you need to weld up) and tack again, then go to the furthest end, make sure is flush, tack again. then go back in between and fill with the series of tacks. I'm not a welder by profession or anything like that, but i have done plenty of this sort of work, i think you will be surprised how thin a material you can do with that welder with a little practice.

 

i think you have a good idea with getting that friend of yours to set you up if he knows a little about welding. also find some thin sheet the same thickness as the hood stand and practice butt welding with small pieces of it until you get the welder dialed in (and you dialed in as well) try the pieces close together and also with a slight gap and notice how the material reacts with the heat.

 

good luck with it, i hope you do well.......

Edited December 30, 2014 by Martin

[rmaynard 14,863]

The MIG welder that I use is a Lincoln Weld-Pak 3200 and belongs to a friend. It has been on loan to me for about 3 years, and I've used it three or four times. I'm not sure that I'm using the correct size wire for the job. I'm going to read the manual again, check my wire, and practice on similar thickness metal. I don't mind making mistakes on places that don't show, but on the hoodstand and upper dash, things have to look perfect for me.

Edited December 30, 2014 by rmaynard