thehorse 221 #26 Posted October 7, 2014 If you look at the pic at the top of my mounting plate...you can see that both ends of the strips to the outside of the bolts are torn off. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chipwitch 73 #27 Posted October 7, 2014 Paul, I wasn't really looking at it from a torquing perspective. You're right. That's exactly what it is. Another fix... if wheel horse had just dropped a JD engine in there, probably would be breaking the mounts. It's hard to tell from his pictures, but it looks like N3PUY's might have had some corrosion on the mating surface? Not that that is the cause. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thehorse 221 #28 Posted October 7, 2014 For anyone that replated your mount..... 1. Did it have the upper and lower horizontal rib? 2. Did it have the one inchish horizontal "I'll call it strength strap" from bolt to bolt? 3 if so, how did you make the plate work with these obstacles that obviously did not add the required strength To keep the bracket from breaking/tearing? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thehorse 221 #29 Posted October 7, 2014 Here is a closer and better pic of my mounting bracket. Notice the ribs and the strap..how it broke on both sides of the bolts...welds and all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chipwitch 73 #30 Posted October 7, 2014 That picture's much better. Couldn't see the doubler in the OP. Looking back at it, I can make it out, but... So, the doubler is cracked too? It looks like they were stingy with the weld. Should have been enough, but I would have done more. Mine only has a total of two inches of bead, I'm guessing. Like I suggested, I would use 1-1/2 wide by 3/16". It wouldn't be surprising for it to crack the doubler as the distance from the bolt hole to the edge can't be more than an 1/8"? It should be at least the width of the hole. Anyway... to answer your questions about getting around the doubler, grind off the welds and remove it. It's a little hard to get in there with a 4 inch grinder. A die grinder should do it with a cut off blade. As for the beading (the "rib"), there isn't much you can do about that. I thought you were going with Paul's bracket? Does the crack go through the hole? I assumed so from the OP, but the new picture looks like it is to the side of the hole. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thehorse 221 #31 Posted October 7, 2014 I think Paul's bracket would work perfect and for insurance.....weld what's a ready cracked. The forces from pulling a plow would be distributed along the entire bracket and to the upper part of the frame. I was just looking at it when I took the pic and yet another surprise......cockroaches dropping to the floor.....well.. Until I'm ready to move on getting it fixed up, I sprayed it with insecticide and kicked it out of my attached garage. She's In the yard with a blue tarp! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chipwitch 73 #32 Posted October 7, 2014 I think Paul called it. Especially if the crack doesn't go through the hole. That's just fatigue stress from the torque. Every time someone does a wheelie, especially with weight on the front, it would stress the mount. The doubler would distribute the stress a little better, but it would still have a tendency to stress at the far ends of the doublers. That transmission is trying to pull the bottom of the mount backwards all the time. Just a guess on my part though. If the cracks don't go through the holes, then Paul's bracket would work great. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ericj 1,579 #33 Posted October 7, 2014 (edited) i'll just throw this out there i have frames already stripped down if you are interested. a 516,312, probably some others. a later 520 already had the reinforced plate welded on them maybe see if somebody on here has a 520 frame for sale eric j Edited October 7, 2014 by ericj Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ericj 1,579 #34 Posted October 7, 2014 (edited) i use the bigger holes in the bottom of the frame to strap my tractors down, while tying down my 73 16 auto i noticed it has a broken frame. haven't had time to check it out any more but i swear it wasn't there a couple of years ago. i haven't worked the tractor much for a few years . last time i remember working it hard was several years ago i plowed a garden and caught some roots that pulled real real hard.i think snow plowing and slamming immovable objects, garden plowing and related stress, and just twisting the frame on hill and such can cause the frame to break eric j Edited October 7, 2014 by ericj Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daveoman1966 3,839 #35 Posted October 8, 2014 The fabricating and weld skills of N3UPY is top-shelf...wish I could weld like that. How thick is the 6 x 6 (appx) repair plate and would that be of consequence when puting the tractor back together. That is, if the tractor is now 1/4" longer, is that detrimental to the brake / clutch linkages or even the main drive belt and its release mechanism. The 1/4" added length may not impact the 8-speeds, but it should be a consideration with the automatics (sundstrand). i.e., the nylon cam and motion control lever are spread apart by the thickness of the repair plate. This is the main reason I prefabbed the 1/4" angle iron parts and mounted them on the INSIDE of the endplate. Food for thought..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PaulC 342 #36 Posted October 8, 2014 Len I wouldn't even bother welding up the cracks in the plate on the tractor I could have easily done so and didn't bother. With my bracket you are essentially adding a whole new lower mount for the trans. The top is structurally sound and bottom will be solid as sears once u add the bracket. If you can easily do it and really want to go ahead but I would not bother dragging the tractor somewhere and paying someone to weld the cracks. Plus the profile of the weld may interfere with the way the bracket sits and if you ground off the welds on that thin plate you would loose all of their strength. Dave N3UPY's was so bad that im assuming he cut the original plate completely off and back far enough that what I would guess is a half inch plate didn't make the frame any longer? Just a guess but your right adding length would probably screw things up on a manual or auto Also I checked this area on my 87 312-A this morning and there are no cracks present. It does have the extra strip added as well. I was told I am the 3rd owner of this machine with almost 1200 hrs and the original owner supposedly just used it to cut a 3-4 acre lot and snowblow. My 312-H I have no idea about its life previous to me so maybe it was used with heavy attachments on back? The hour meter only shows like 560 but I realized it doesn't work once I got it home just like Lens 416. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
N3PUY 1,031 #37 Posted October 8, 2014 The repair that I made on my 416-8 was to bend all the pieces back into shape, "V" groove the cracks and weld back together. After grinding smooth the weld is in the "V" groove and has not been ground away. The plate I added over the original mount is 3/16". It had to be on the outside because the inside has the stiffening bars. Nothing needed to be changed for the length except the shift gate needed to be moved rearward with the shifter. I could have bent the shift lever but it was easier to move the plate back. Belt, clutch and brake all worked OK. Oh... some adjustment mounting the fender pan. I don't know what broke the mount because that's how I bought it. The tractor was advertised as "300-400 series Wheel Horse, needs starter, frame is going. Make offer." no pictures either. My offer was $40. When I got it home I cleaned the starter and it started. My boy took it for a ride and I laughed my head off!!!!! It was like a bucking bronco! If "thehorse" only has the cracks at the bottom I'ld remove the factory hole reinforcement and weld in a plate from the stiffening ridge to the bottom and weld it to both sides. But that's just me. Joe Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chipwitch 73 #38 Posted October 8, 2014 As a matter of coincidence, I'm in the middle of outfitting my tractor with a 3-pt hitch. As I'm going over the tractor assessing the pros and cons of various attachment points, this thread keeps coming to mind. Since taking on this little project, I've always had it in my head to attach the lower lift links to the axle, in one form or another but I didn't want to put ALL the stress on the axle. At some point, I wanted to attach to the tractor frame as well to provide support to the implement. One way of looking at what I'm saying is, two lower links attach to the axle, and the actual lifting force would be from a point higher up the rear of the tractor then transferred forward to the frame. Bottom line is the frame seems like a logical place to make this connection. BUT, in light of this thread, it's obvious that the load from a cantilevered implement (especially a long heavy one) or the torque placed on the 3 point hitch by a plow blade sunk 8" and being dragged would easily place more force on the transmission mount that it was designed for. Dozer blades, FEL's and maybe blowers (I live in Florida, so don't know the forces snow removal place on the tractor frame). Towing a heavy load with the draw bar hitch could NOT be a cause, rather it seems highly unlikely that would do it. Just some thoughts I felt compelled to share for consideration. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PaulC 342 #39 Posted October 8, 2014 Chipwitch I am making a bracket for Len so if you think one would help you out as well let me know quickly as making a second at the same time would not take that long. I am not charging big dollars for it either mainly just happy to help other forum members out. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chipwitch 73 #40 Posted October 8, 2014 Thank you, no. My mount is in fine condition. I can see how a 3 pt hitch (or any heavy load) mounted to the frame would cause the mount to break in this fashion. Personally, I think N3PUY's approach is superior. I'll be implementing a modified version of his. Not because my mount needs the additional support, but because, a 1/4" plate welded at the rear of the mount would also make an excellent anchor point to bear the load of the 3 pt hitch, as it is directly bolted to the transmission. If I'm right about my theory that the damage is a result of too much load on the chassis as opposed to the load being placed wholly on the transmission, then the plate would only need be sandwiched between the mount and the transmission. Provided, of course, that the mount isn't already damaged. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thehorse 221 #41 Posted October 13, 2014 After 6 plus hours, the 416 is cleaned up....probably knocked 24 lbs of dirt, grease,bugs, clippings, 24 years worth out and off of this beast. Going to paint up the one side panel and foot rests and reinstall after I get Paul's bracket. Changed the engine oil and filter. The tranny plug was stripped badly. Pipe nipple extractor did the job. Almost drained and there is no way 5 quarts came out. The dipstick read good though before I changed it. Installed a new filter but not sure why so little came out. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ericj 1,579 #42 Posted October 14, 2014 look'n good eric j Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PaulC 342 #43 Posted October 14, 2014 Len that is looking very good!! for sure a well kept tractor Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nhunt308 143 #44 Posted October 14, 2014 Scroll up on this thread and check the photos that N3PUY posted his is by far the worst id ever seen and it had the extra strip, my 312-H had the strip and cracked as well. I have another 312-A that I don't think ive ever checked but am going to soon. Maybe it does only happen from torqueing stress on the rear axle from heavy attachments and such. I am a former fabricator that is now doing mechanical design and I think I would have confidence in that design if it were new to me. To bad I don't have a 3d model of our awesome tractor frames maybe I could run some analysis on it with the fancy new programs we have today and see if that would show as a weak point. No clue about those holes but there were 22 some odd attachments made for these beasts maybe one of those would use them? If you can give me a blueprint I'll make you a 3d model...!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thehorse 221 #45 Posted October 14, 2014 It looks well kept now......I have to tell you it took a lot of spit shining..... PO did not clean in 20 years....looks like fluids were done though..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites