New to me 416-h

[thehorse 221]

Well after a long drive , I got the 416-h home. Model 41160E01. It appears to have some frankenwiring done to ir, but seems everything works. 671hrs. But after running around the yard for 30 min or so....the hr meter didn't seem to move. Next time I buy a machine with a "working" meter, I'll let it run till it moves to make sure. All in all though it runs strong and hydro all works well. Will need some new tires and some seat work as well as welding.the transmission mount is cracked pretty good. Has some inner wheel weights on it....never saw those before. Once it's all taken care of though it should make a fine worker. I plan on running a blower on IT this winter..Does anyone have Napa numbers for the engine and transmission filters? Will a weld suffice on the mount or should I also look to plate it?

[Desko 624]

Hydro filter is 1410 Napa and it takes 10w-30 engine no clue I use Purolator but I don't remember the number either the frame looks like it should have supports welded in.

[woodchuckfarmer 333]

I welded 1/4x1 bars across the holes, top and bottom. Welded the cracks on the trans side and ground it smooth. Wayne

[PaulC 342]

Hey Len my 312-H had the same issue. I don't think it will effect anything unless you plan to put a load on the rear axle. I never knew mine was like that until I made a beefy trailer hitch that mounted to the axle and tried to move my snowmobile trailer loaded with sleds.

 

Anyway here is a thread I started of how I fixed mine quite strong now!!!  

[thehorse 221]

I saw it....great thread.

I may take you up on one of your brackets.....

[Molon_Labe 731]

Great looking     . Welding up and reinforcing the frame shouldn't be too bad.

[chipwitch 73]

How does a crack like that occur?  I would think it would take an enormous force...

[daveoman1966 3,839]

This is how I fixed my 520-H and an older C-120.  PO had tried to weld a 1/4" plate to the frame plate but it was destined to fail.  So, I cut and shaped these two 1/4" 2x2 angle iron braces / reinforcements.  It is now BULLET-PROOF.

For those without welder skills (or access to), this is a very doable alternative, no weld needed.  Inasmuch as the strain is largely transferred to the side plates instead of the 4 frame bolts and plat welds, this would seem a much stronger repair. I use all Nylok nuts on the 3/8 bolts.

 

Note the fulcrum point of the last pic, which 'pinches' the cracked frame plate to the trans case while you work on it.   The trans case sits on the wood block on the concrete block....   

Edited October 7, 2014 by daveoman1966

[chipwitch 73]

Are those four transmission mounting bolts the only thing mating the transmission to the chassis?  If so, then the crack is just showing that the mount is the weak link.  You still only have the 4 transmission mounting bolts (3/8"?) which bear the support.  I'm shocked it cracks in the first place.  That design, based on 1/8" thickness and 3/8" bolts, the mount should be good for a static vertical load of about 6000 lbs.  Safety factor of 6, it's still good for a half ton.  For those mounts to fail like that it would have to have a significant horizontal load while under heavy vertical load as well.  While all the suggestions should work, a simple 1-1/2" x 3/16" flat bar doubler welded across the bottom  two holes should also be more than sufficient.

 

In any case, just welding the crack won't be enough by itself unless you only intend to use the tractor for light duty (mowing, garden trailer).

[bmsgaffer 2,053]

Are those four transmission mounting bolts the only thing mating the transmission to the chassis?  If so, then the crack is just showing that the mount is the weak link.  You still only have the 4 transmission mounting bolts (3/8"?) which bear the support.  I'm shocked it cracks in the first place.  That design, based on 1/8" thickness and 3/8" bolts, the mount should be good for a static vertical load of about 6000 lbs.  Safety factor of 6, it's still good for a half ton.  For those mounts to fail like that it would have to have a significant horizontal load while under heavy vertical load as well.  While all the suggestions should work, a simple 1-1/2" x 3/16" flat bar doubler welded across the bottom  two holes should also be more than sufficient.

 

In any case, just welding the crack won't be enough by itself unless you only intend to use the tractor for light duty (mowing, garden trailer).

 

I could easily see how -when weighted down with weights, attachments, riders etc- that this plate could easily see shock loads of several thousand pounds. The way it creates a "bridge" between the front frame and the driving wheels.

 

Especially if people are towing trailers or doing lots of plowing. I know that I have hit concrete joints at a good clip before when plowing and that is quite a shock to 20-40+ year old steel.

 

Just think how much worse it would be if the WH engineers didn't put the plow bracket right on the drive axle to counter the torque of the drive wheels...

[daveoman1966 3,839]

I wish I'd have kept (or pics of) some of these from years past.  Typically, the crack starts at either lower bolt, then progresses to the bottom edge of the plate.  When this goes unnoticed, over the years the crack will migrate to the corners of the plate and split it toward the top...giving rise to a full-length corner crack, in addition to cracks around the mounting bolts. 

You can see this corner crack in the last pic....where it is split just at the level of the two bolts I installed. 

In any case, the angle iron plates I made reinforce both the corners and the face of the end plate.    

It should be noted to use 4 mounting bolts that are longer ONLY by the thiclness of the repair plate (and washer)  being used.  Using a bolt that is too long MAY, on tightening,  bottom-out and break the trans case itself....not sure.       

[thehorse 221]

I am not a welder and really dont have access to much in the line of materials. 

Whats my best option? I dont plan on towing anything with the tractor.

[N3PUY 1,031]

This is how I repaired my 416-8.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2014 by N3PUY

[chipwitch 73]

I am not a welder and really dont have access to much in the line of materials. 

Whats my best option? I dont plan on towing anything with the tractor.

 

Your original post, you asked if welding the crack would be sufficient... I assumed you had access to welding?  Welding is far and again the best.  You don't have to be a pro.  Heck, just a ocy/acet set up can do an excellent job welding and is quite easy.

 

I guess there are more than one ways to skin a cat, as they say.  Daveoman's solution doesn't require a welder and would really help.  If you're using a blower, I don't think you'd have much stress to worry about.  Just weld the cracks and keep an eye on them.  If you have a sheet metal shop in your area, you could give them plans and they could brake you a 3/16" doubler that would spoon right into the original mount.  Add a couple bolts like Daveo's and you'd have a great non-weld repair.  You could probably find a small welding shop that would probably only charge you $20 bucks or so if you took the part to their shop with the doublers already cut to dimension and prepped.  Just sand off all paint, rust and scale using any kind of sander and 80 grit

[PaulC 342]

If you have no intentions of towing anything substantial I would keep an eye on it and leave it be. I did not know about this design flaw and used my tractor that way for a while until I tried to tow my sled trailer loaded up. Pulling my lawn sweeper and empty sled trailer quite a few times before I never had an issue.

 

If you really want to fix it (I may be biased  ) but I think my bracket is the best option. The others are great options that would hold up just fine but I think the way mine carries the load up another foot or so on the frame acting as a gusset would be the strongest. If I made one up for you all you would need is you standard tools and a hand drill and 2 drill bits. If you decided you want to do that I could ship this bracket and the motion control plate we talked about in your other thread at the same time.

[chipwitch 73]

Paul, your bracket does far more to reinforce horizontal forces than it does vertical forces.  Not that that's a bad thing.  The support your bracket provides, virtually eliminates the lateral forces at that point, transferring them to the frame.  Horizontally, your solution is by far stronger than any others offered here. Was that your intent?  Offsetting horizontal forces? 

 

I once heard it said that an Engineer's primary function is accounting.  Contrary to popular belief, their job isn't to make things stronger... it's to make things only as strong as they need to be while saving money in material and labor. 

 

I can only imagine these cracks develop as a result of WH's power and overall strength.... they handle just about anything we throw at them... We continually overload them, tow more than they were designed for and undoubtedly abuse them far more than the designers ever envisioned.  I still cannot imagine how much force it would take to cause this kind of damage.  It can't be caused simply by the proverbial little old lady who only mowed her grass with it on Sundays. 

[thehorse 221]

Actually.......I will need to beef it up.....if the tractor runs well, i have brinley plow and clevis hitch for it. Im sure when that catches a root, it will really stress things out. 

Your bracket may be what the Dr. ordered Paul....ill pm you when i get a chance this evening or tomorrow.

thanks

Len

[thehorse 221]

OH....Paul did you have any trouble mounting a deck or other implements with your bracket?

[PaulC 342]

Chipwitch yes that was my intention. Even though the transaxle only attaches with 4 3/6-16 bolts that is still a very strong connection vertically, in that the direction the bolts would have to shear to fail and 1, 3/8 grade 5 bolt can withstand 8200lbs before it shears, and grade 8 can withstand 10000lbs so one would have to put a more then 30000lbs of force in that direction.

 

I personally think it was a minor design flaw as the bottom of that bracket is not beefy enough. My assumption is that the bottom portion of that mount, where the cracks develop, can flex maybe even under normal mowing use? When the machines were new the flex was most likely very minimal but after 20-30 years of that sheet metal flexing back and forth started to develop the cracks and obviously with time they get worse. Then you throw a heavy attachment such as a tiller or decide to put a heavy tongued trailer on it and it multiplies the flex.

 

When I loaded that axle up with my loaded trailer it essentially turned the top two bolts into a pivot point so my bracket carries that up to the frame. You are correct it does not add anything in the vertical direction but I do not think that is needed.

[PaulC 342]

Ok Len let me know. I have had a 42" sd deck, 42" rd deck, and 42" snowblower mounted on mine with zero clearance issues and I also have a trailer hitch receiver on there that attaches to the axle similar to the way the plow brackets mount. I have no experience with the attachments you mentioned so I would say look at the photos on my thread closely and try to envision if you would have interference. I don't expect you would but cant say for certain.

[chipwitch 73]

Paul, shear of the bolt isn't the weak point.  It's the compression of the 1/8" thick mount.  That's what I was referring to in my earlier post.  There's only enough steel directly under the 4 bolts to support a little less than 7,000 lbs before deformation takes place if we're talking about A36 steel.  Of course, I don't know what steel they used.  Just a guess.

[PaulC 342]

The price of steel at that point in time they probably could have doubled the thickness of that plate to 1/4 for pennies and my guess is this would be a non issue. They did try to add small strips over the bolt holes in later models like mine but that did not work either.

[chipwitch 73]

Paul, that's funny... I was just coming back to ask about that.  Just looked at my C-125.  It has the strip you speak of.  No cracks.  Looks factory.  Obviously it was a flaw they recognized and modified.  It's easy to miss something like that during design.  They have a safety factor of 6 or more.  The design is adequate "on paper."   Just goes to show that dynamic stresses sometimes have minds of their own.  Anyone ever hear of the welded strip mod ever cracking?

 

On a side note, does anyone know what those two holes are on the mount?  The ones on the sides of the mount at the bottom?  Looks like it might be for a rockshaft or something.  Maybe a manufacturing lift point?

[PaulC 342]

Scroll up on this thread and check the photos that N3PUY posted his is by far the worst id ever seen and it had the extra strip, my 312-H had the strip and cracked as well. I have another 312-A that I don't think ive ever checked  but am going to soon. Maybe it does only happen from torqueing stress on the rear axle from heavy attachments and such.

 

I am a former fabricator that is now doing mechanical design and I think I would have confidence in that design if it were new to me. To bad I don't have a 3d model of our awesome tractor frames maybe I could run some analysis on it with the fancy new programs we have today and see if that would show as a weak point.

 

No clue about those holes but there were 22 some odd attachments made for these beasts maybe one of those would use them?

[slammer302 2,156]

If you send me the measurements I will make you a plate the you can weld or bolt on to it I will need width height and were the bolt holes are and I can cut it out on the CNC plaz tonight at work