ibskot 37 #1 Posted September 30, 2014 I have a 416 that misses. I took it to the shop and they told me the cam is most likely broken or chipped and that the engine is trashed. They have to tear engine down and rebuild to confirm.. The carb and fuel line was cleaned too. Does this sound reasonable? I hate to just trash it but I don't want to dump more into it then I paid for it either. thanks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmsgaffer 2,043 #2 Posted September 30, 2014 Kohler single or Onan twin? If nothing else you can probably sell the engine as is here for a few bucks to put towards a "new" engine or wheel horse. I would vote putting a little money in and rebuilding it (even if it is more than you paid for it). If the rest of the tractor is in good shape (and well taken care of) then the engine is easy and will last many many years. Well worth it. Just dont scrap it. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ibskot 37 #3 Posted September 30, 2014 Kohler magnum? scale of 1-10....how hard is a rebuild? Rest of it is in fine shape. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fordiesel69 214 #4 Posted September 30, 2014 Sounds like a load of BS to me. I would try to figure it out, with a manual, videos, and the awesome help here, you will be amazed how easy it is. Ziploc bags, magic markers, and pictures go a long way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmsgaffer 2,043 #5 Posted September 30, 2014 I had the will but not the time to rebuild my engine so I have a local shop doing a complete rebuild on a Kohler K series (the predecessor to the magnum) for $450. That's new rings, piston, valves, machining bore and crank and even bead blasting the whole block for me.. If you have the time, tools and will to do it yourself (with the help of a decent machine shop for the block and crank work) you could probably come in for just over half of that. (this forum will be much help!) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ibskot 37 #6 Posted September 30, 2014 Sounds like a load of BS to me. I would try to figure it out, with a manual, videos, and the awesome help here, you will be amazed how easy it is. Ziploc bags, magic markers, and pictures go a long way. I did address it months ago but then fizzled out due to moving, now a new baby etc. I did a number of things. I realized with used stuff you win some and lose some but I only got this thing for my dad, not even for me. Darn. As far as will etc, the time is more elusive then any of those things. I could let it sit til I do have time I suppose. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
boovuc 1,090 #7 Posted October 1, 2014 Before I would do a major job, I would eliminate all the other possibilities. Some of these things you may have done and others, maybe not. Change the fuel line, filter and make sure you have no gunk in the outlet of the fuel tank. Clean, clean again then re-clean the carb. Then clean it again! (removing the needle valves spraying carb cleaner in the orifices). Change out the plugs making sure they are gapped correctly. Look up the proper plug for the motor. Don't go by what you found in it when you bought it. Change out the air filter. With it sitting in total darkness, run it looking for any arks of light that may cause a miss from your plug wires or a short elsewhere. Check the spark on both cylinders. If one cyl is weak, you may have a coil issue. There are many things that can cause a miss. Eliminate what you can as a cause working your way up the cost ladder. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ken B 3,116 #8 Posted October 1, 2014 And don't forget to take a compression test... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ibskot 37 #9 Posted October 1, 2014 Before I would do a major job, I would eliminate all the other possibilities. Some of these things you may have done and others, maybe not. Change the fuel line, filter and make sure you have no gunk in the outlet of the fuel tank. Clean, clean again then re-clean the carb. Then clean it again! (removing the needle valves spraying carb cleaner in the orifices). Change out the plugs making sure they are gapped correctly. Look up the proper plug for the motor. Don't go by what you found in it when you bought it. Change out the air filter. With it sitting in total darkness, run it looking for any arks of light that may cause a miss from your plug wires or a short elsewhere. Check the spark on both cylinders. If one cyl is weak, you may have a coil issue. There are many things that can cause a miss. Eliminate what you can as a cause working your way up the cost ladder. Yeah...I did this almost a year ago before it sat. The shop redid some of this too. I took it there in hopes it could be reasonably saved. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ibskot 37 #10 Posted October 1, 2014 (edited) Let me ask...if I want to find another engine, would I need another WH kohler? Any tips on what to keep in mind if I want to keep my eye open? My dad has a JD with a kohler 15hp that runs good. It is on "L" series I think that was purchased at Lowe's maybe 15 yrs ago. thoughts? Edited October 1, 2014 by ibskot Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmsgaffer 2,043 #11 Posted October 1, 2014 Because of the mechanical pto, you will need to find a wheel horse spec engine as far as I know. The PTO puts a LOT of side pressure on the crankshaft when its running, so there is a bearing in the engine to account for that. You could do an electric PTO swap (hard to find i think) and solve that problem though. (That is just my best educated guess by reading MANY posts on the matter) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ibskot 37 #12 Posted October 1, 2014 Oh well, shot in the dark. It is a great unit except for the miss. I don't really have time or $ to spend on it. Oh well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
boovuc 1,090 #13 Posted October 1, 2014 Does it still miss at 3600 RPM's, just at idle or all through the powerband? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ericj 1,576 #14 Posted October 2, 2014 is this a kohler or an onan if it is a kohler it could be a valve burnt or hanging up, semi common problem with carbon build up. has the motor ever been rebuilt ? when the rod lets loose on them it sometimes breaks the cam eric j Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ibskot 37 #15 Posted October 2, 2014 To my knowledge their has been no rebuild. It is a Kohler magnum. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ericj 1,576 #16 Posted October 3, 2014 (edited) you could pick up a used cam on flea bay or from a vendor on here. on the up side if you do go for the rebuild you "should" have a motor that will last a long time to come yet. one more thing did you consider getting a 2nd opinion on what is wrong and make sure they are not trying to sell you a bill of goods. some dealer unfortunately if they don't know what the problem is or just don't want to be bother charge a high price and over kill to try and discourage you from doing the work and try and sell you a new and " better" mower eric j Edited October 3, 2014 by ericj 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ibskot 37 #17 Posted October 3, 2014 I think i will do the second opinion thing. I hate to give up on it but i can't afford ($ or time) a rebuild so if maybe i will part it out. Side question....how feasible is it to take my 12 hp engine off my 310-8 with a red 12 hp motor on it and put it on the 416-8? Is it merely a bolt on? I ask b/c the 416 just feels more robust. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ericj 1,576 #18 Posted October 4, 2014 same basic tractor the 310-8 and the 416. is the 416 an 8 speed or a hydro, the reason i ask is that the engine pulley is different diameter, other then that the charging system is different, not sure how to overcome that maybe somebody else could chime in or ask soi in the electrical section. don't get in a hurry to get rid of the 416 you never know when something might come up or run into that might change your mind eric j Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ibskot 37 #19 Posted October 4, 2014 Yeah....I am already second guessing that. I don't have time or $ now. Might later. Then there is the space issue. Oh well. it is a 416-8 btw. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Save Old Iron 1,563 #20 Posted October 4, 2014 (edited) Oh well, shot in the dark. "in the dark" good thinking! run the engine at night - "in the dark" - check for any stray sparks around the spark plug wires or coil. Maybe try a spray bottle with water and a drop of dish-washing liquid mixed in. Spritz around the spark plug / coil area. If the problem gets worse, look for cracks in spark plug wire or boot area. Quick and no $$$ spent. BTW is this a K or Magnum engine? Edited October 4, 2014 by Save Old Iron Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
boovuc 1,090 #21 Posted October 4, 2014 He has a magnum, SOI. I'm with you. There are a lot of things to do absolutely free to determine many common fuel and ignition issues that can cause a miss. By the way, I never got an answer from the ibskot on a question I posed earlier.................Does the miss occur at idle only or does it miss all through the RPM range? Let us know and thanks! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ibskot 37 #22 Posted October 4, 2014 Boovac, I apologize. I must have skipped reading that. Didn't mean to ignore that. I will check monday. When I went to pick it up (along with the other that is doing good), I only had enough cash to pay for the one that was doing good. The one guy that knew how to take visa was out. Go figure. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ibskot 37 #23 Posted October 4, 2014 Save Old Iron, I will try this.... though i did try the dark thing before it sat for so long but to no avail. Thanks Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ericj 1,576 #24 Posted October 4, 2014 i reread some of this thread and realized i forgot you were working with a 16 magnum. the red 12 hp motor is probably a k series motor although they did make some red magnums just not used on wheel horse. what i'm getting at is if 1 is a mag and 1 a k series the wiring is different and the ignition switch is also different. not impossible to switch over but not worth the hassle in my opinion for 2 tractors that almost identical eric j Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
boovuc 1,090 #25 Posted October 4, 2014 Not a problem. If it doesn't miss at full throttle, I doubt it's an internal issue. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites