1979 C-121 Auto

[wheeledhorseman 573]

It's over a year now since I parted a C-121. It had been bought with that intention as it had no engine and numerous other bits had also been removed presumably to restore another. I'm not sure if I ever photographed it, shame really as the paint was original and the panels all good but it would have cost way too much to make whole again and parts of it live on in my little herd, some made their way to Yorkshire, and some still on the shelf.

 

Anyway, I was looking on ebay, as you do, saw another and from the photos and description immediately thought - A parts tractor and not far away   Why parts tractor? Well it was clear from the photos that it was a bit of a 'Heinz' (57 varieties), parts were missing and the description included 'reluctant to start' which can indicate a terminally ill Kohler. Also when it did start vendor had got it to go backwards and forwards which doesn't mean a hydrostatic transmission is good - it needs to be hot and under load to test that. So, potentially lots of good parts here e.g. even if the hydro is shot there are internals that are nla that could come in handy for my other tractors with Sundstrand transmissions. A duff Kohler also contains many useful parts so I fixed a price in my head bid and got it along with another Kohler that had given it's stator coils at some point so presumed it was bad as it had become a donor.

 

I wouldn't normally go into details about a tractor like this but as we've had a number of new members recently thought they might find it informative. Here's the haul!

 

 

and outside today for a look over.

 

 

It was the last of a collection of six tractors that Jeff 'feather20a' acquired a couple of years back in various states of disassembly and completeness when an old boy living locally died. Various bits were missing for this one - hence the Heath Robinson seat arrangement, the rear wheels belong to a much earlier WH, the tyres have 'Wheel Horse' set in the moulding (anyone ID what they're from?)

 

 

Transmission not looking good - hub on left is fixed on with bolt that passes through the axle  Good hubs (and axles) would have been nice to have but its having spare internal parts that was on my list. Inspection revealed that the keyways were shot on both sides both on the hubs and axle shafts.

 

 

The front wheels where not a pair. The one above belongs to a C series, had a bald tyre and the wheel bearings were shot.

 

 

The other was a much narrower rim and nearly bald tyre - presumably from the same tractor as with the narrow rears.

 

 

I turned the Kohler over by hand - it made the normal wheezes and couldn't feel any thing bad other than very little compression which would be why it was difficult to start. Could just be head gasket or poorly seating / burnt valve but may be more sinister so little point trying to start it at this stage as it needs the head off for a look-see.

 

 

It hadn't been my intention to do any more than give it the once over but decided to put the correct wheels from the first parts C-121 on it. Why?

 

 

Well, to see what it looked like and make a point perhaps. I could have gone the whole hog as I still have the seat mounts for one of these and this one did come with the belt guard and side panel but with just the wheels it looks almost 'sellable' for more than I paid for it but there's a lot wrong with it and it would cost far too much to put right. It's a parts tractor.

 

When I get time I'll see if the Kohler is easy to fix. It would be handy to get it running ok so I can test the transmission always assuming the hubs stay on. If it does run ok it's tempting to then consider putting the 8 speed from the first one on it but in a way it's defeating the aim of having good spares on the shelf that can be swapped out so I'll have to think about that one.

 

Andy

[neil 2,398]

Looks like you got loads good parts there Andy ,  a good carb is worh a few Bob.

Rear wheels could be off a commando 7 or something  from the 60`s , would be interested in them if you are thinking of moving them on .

 

well worth getting for parts alone

[meadowfield 2,545]

Rough as they come, always good to have spares on hand

[wheeledhorseman 573]

Rough as they come, always good to have spares on hand

 

It's nice in a way when they're as rough as this in that it's an easy decision to break them up. You'll recall it took me a long time to decide with the last as what was left of it was in very good condition.

 

 

Looks like you got loads good parts there Andy ,  a good carb is worh a few Bob.

Rear wheels could be off a commando 7 or something  from the 60`s , would be interested in them if you are thinking of moving them on .

 

well worth getting for parts alone

 

I thought somebody might be interested in those. I remembered seeing them on the tractor when I visited Jeff to pick up some bits a while ago. I'll get some photos today to add to the thread. Will certainly give you first chance Neil as I'd rather they go to an active RS member than appear on epay.

 

Andy

[dodgemike 52]

Andy; I have my Dads 1978 C121.

It is in good shape but if you would

PM me with anything you want to

sell I would be grateful. Thanks

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

[wheeledhorseman 573]

Ok, for those of you into rubber here's the tyre detail:

 

 

 

 

 

So they're Wheel Horse branded Turf Savers made in the USA size 6-12, 2 ply.

 

I was surprised about the two ply rating but there you go. Other strange things are that the information appearst to have only been moulded into one side of the tyre and the tyres were fitted to the rims with this on the inside face unless they've been complete scuffed away on the outside perhaps? 

 

 

The tyres are surface cracked as you'd expect for their age and I doubt they've ever had a puncture and been off the rims as the chunky valves look period and original to me. I don't think that there are any tubes in these and despite their age and the cracking they hold air and loads of tread left!

 

Andy

 

(about to send pms Mike and Neil)

[Anglo Traction 759]

Well Andy, compared to my last WH acquisition/project , that one is in good nick!. the 6 x12"s are from the Workhorse 700 Model (called a Commando 7 by Belgium). 

 

Edit - P.S. that Drive Belt should last at least 5 mins  .....and how small is that Muffler outlet?.  

Edited March 23, 2014 by Anglo Traction

[Stigian 1,234]

A nice find Andy, I have to admit that I would struggle to work out if to restore/make usable it or break it for spares....   I think even with the bolt through the axle I'd be inclined to get it usable and wait for another better condition trans to turn up.. But that's just me

[wheeledhorseman 573]

Wasn't sure whether to put up a post on this one or not but it's stimulated some discussion in the Euro section so I'll continue with it.

 

 

Well Andy, compared to my last WH acquisition/project , that one is in good nick!. the 6 x12"s are from the Workhorse 700 Model (called a Commando 7 by Belgium). 

 

Edit - P.S. that Drive Belt should last at least 5 mins  .....and how small is that Muffler outlet?.  

 

It's in nothing like as good condition as the first one I had which stood in my workshop waiting, hoping that another donor like this would come along but it didn't. So after a year I started robbing bits off it for the 316 I'd got, and some for the C-100. It was an agonising decision (head vs heart stuff) but in the end I dismantled what was left to make room for other projects. There wasn't one bolt that didn't just come straight out it was that good (sadly).

 

Both the belt and the muffler are 'gems' - obviously didn't bother the old boy who enjoyed 'tinkering' with WHs and cobbling bits together. I'll post a pic of the muffler in a moment.

 

 

A nice find Andy, I have to admit that I would struggle to work out if to restore/make usable it or break it for spares....   I think even with the bolt through the axle I'd be inclined to get it usable and wait for another better condition trans to turn up.. But that's just me

 

C-121s for parts seem to be like buses last time I waited for ages but none came along. This time there were two came up on epay at the same time, both autos, one with no engine (so read faulty transmission I thought). Put my bid down on this one, went to put my bid on the other and.... it had been ended with no bids as NLA. Don't you just love epayers for this? Okay, nobody had bid but I've had stuff that I have bid on be withdrawn before. Oh well...

 

Anyways, here's the plan for what I have got Ian.

 

First try and get the Kohler going. I doubt it's anything external as I'm sure Jeff would have tried the obvious. He actually put a new OEM air filter on it, new fuel line and filter so I'm sure he will have checked points, cleaned carb etc but I'll double check. Learnt from my first ever WH project that I should have taken the head off that one before spending time on money on it. If it's do-able and it runs then I can check the tranny (always hoping the belt lives long enough Richard).

 

If not then there's another K301s that came in the same haul as the first C-121 I had. I've never tested that one so no idea what it's like other than turns ok by hand with compression. Being able to bolt it onto the frame to work on it makes it a more attractive proposition. The K301s that came with the latest haul is shot I think. Turns ok by hand with compression but I can feel play taking up in either direction so my guess is that the big end is gone. I've still got the K301 from the C-120 auto where the rings & piston were shot but there were no noises from the crank or con rod on that one so there's the makings of another K301 there somewhere if I ever get the time.

 

Re the Sundstrand Auto tranny I may try repairing the axles as there's nothing to lose but potentially lots to learn by trial and error about attempting to referb a worn keyway, oh and plug a gaping hole as well on the other side. If I get that far I think I'll be picking your brains Ian.

 

For Richard - here's the muffler.

 

 

Not sure if it was off a small engine or what but it's been adapted for sure. The outlet is a bit small for a K301 (about an inch across the unsquashed section) but I have something else I can fit and try but I doubt it's what's holding back the engine from starting well but who knows, I haven't even tried starting it yet, perhaps at the weekend.

 

Not sure what the K301s with the big end issue is from, it has electric start but no alternator now, but does have its own fuel tank that mounts above the starter. The ID foils are badly battered but spec looks like 47394 followed by something illegible, a D perhaps.The serial is intact but half covered by a splodge of something that will need careful removing.

 

Here's some pics fron Jeff's listing

 

 

 

 

Ideas of what it was once from welcome - that tank arrangement is going to come in handy when it comes to test running Kohlers in future!

 

 Re the Commando 7 tyres (thanks for that Richard) they may go to a new home if a good offer is made but if not then I've decided that with the rim refinished and the tyre wall brought back to looking better, I'd pick out the lettering in white, make a clock to mount in the centre and hang it in the barn. With the other mount a glass bowl in the centre perhaps to make a large floor standing ashtray like the little ones you used to see on parts counters. If not then a second clock to sell on. Potential artwork needed for the clock faces if I go this route Mark.

 

Andy

[Anglo Traction 759]

I imagine there would be a fair amount of backpressure with that Muffler, as well as the side glowing red if ran for long.

 

k301s 47394 is listed as a 'Basic', so did not have a specific application or Contract buyer (probably an off-the-shelf batch model). 

It's the first 'Low Mount' Starter I've seen on a K301, the reason is obvious and that is a very handy Tank. 

 

Nice to have a few spare motors around to rob and tinker with. I have some new/used bits around, so PM me before you go buying anything.  

 

I'm playing with B & S engines and their Pulsa- Jet Carbs at the mo'   got the manual, but no 'T' shirt yet.

[Stigian 1,234]

Just looking at the photo's again Andy.. I see the hydraulic ram is missing.. It could be worth checking for open hydraulic connections before you fire her up..

Save's you from having to clean up oil that's sprayed everywhere from an open connection...  

 

I have a 14hp Kohler with the same engine mounted gas tank as your one, it came from an old saw bench.. I will get some photo's of it today if I can find it.. Buried under GT body panels

[wheeledhorseman 573]

You've convinced me Richard - I'll swap it out for the one that used to dangle curiously out the side of my C-100 which is Kohler but not WH. Finally got round this winter to cleaning up an OEM Nelson that came on a WH Kohler and had obviously not done a whole lot of hours and fitted that to the C-100. Looks much better and sounds right now but I'd kind of got used to the odd looking one and its sound.

 

Haven't spent any time yet looking over the latest 'parts' K301 so hadn't spotted the 'Low Mount' starter, when Ian posts pics of his you'll be able to say you've seen two.  Thought it was probably from their 'standard' range but hadn't looked it up - thanks for doing that. Lots of good bits on it though better tin work for a good spare K241 I've got where the flywheel cover has rotted out round the bottom. I've been thinking of making a test rig for Kohlers from cut down WH chassis, put trolley wheels on it etc. I'm sure I'll find a way of fitting that tank onto the old tin to make one that can be put on to a WH spec engine while its being tested and tinkered with. 

 

Not sure if it ever had a ram or not Ian but I'll certainly check as you say. Again, haven't had much time to give the tractor a full look over. It's a real 'bitsa' and there are bits on it I don't recall from the last but I'm sure the old boy got loads of pleasure from what he did. Not sure if I ever mentioned it but there was a GT-14 in the collection that Jeff acquired, no threepoint, no hydro for that matter - it had an 8 speed welded to the frame!

 

Andy

[Stigian 1,234]

I will try and get some photo's of it today guy's, I managed to twist my lower spine in a very bad way Saturday morning, so moving stuff about including me is a bit painful at the mo!

[Stigian 1,234]

Rob was good enough to give me a hand digging the engine out today, so here's a few photo's.

 

The engine is a 14hp

Model Number K321S

Spec Number 60112d

Series Number 5076225

 

 

 

 

 

The low slung starter motor.

 

 

 

It used to live in this saw bench.. Photo stolen borrowed from Fleabay

 

 

 

My plans for it??   Well, that would be telling

 

 

[wheeledhorseman 573]

Er...  ...... with a  'Robot Wars' scenario in mind, mount the blade directly to the Kohler, make it attach to the 3-point on the 6x6 perhaps?

 

Interesting pics Ian, particularly the bench with no belt or blade guards, warnings about not using it in a confined space, flammable liquid, ear and eye protection stickers etc - however did people use these things and manage to reach retiring age?

 

Some progress made on the C121 today!

I'm determined not to spend a lot of time (or money) on this as I really want to get the carts finished and free up workshop space and I was hoping to paint the second sides today. Weather's got colder though, particularly at night and although the paint's dry it had that feel that I just knew it would mark where the tubs were supported off the floor so burnt some gas getting the workshop warm which may do the trick for tomorrow.

 

Changed the muffler on the K301, tried blowing through that odd one Richard - good thinking  , there was some restriction compared to the better one I had. Adjusted the points which were a bit wide, checked for a spark, checked carb over and found the main jet needle had an odd blackening towards the pointy end. It came off with solvent but also found that hollow interior between the lowest set of holes and the rest is blocked. To save time robbed a good one off a spare carb, set the jet adjusters to the recommended (before tweaking) number of turns. Removed the old drive belt  in case it broke and tried to take me out with it.(I don't think it would have lasted even 5 mins Richard!)

 

The pump was obviously struggling to get gas from the tank (rear tank syndrome) so needed some assistance. Good job there was nobody about to take a photo - could be embarrasing if you know what I mean. Kohler fired up, the usual odds and ends came flying out from between the fins, no blue smoke or smell of oil being burnt, no odd noises from the crank case apart from a little tappet noise.

Ran it for about ten minutes to clear it out but got tired of needing to assist the pump from time to time. Guess the little gauze on the tap is blocked or collapsed.

 

On to the tranny. Bit of real luck was that the drive belt from the first C-121 (manual) seems to fit an auto. Discovered in the process of fitting that the pawl brake inside the transmission still works. A bonus not only that it works but therefore it hasn't shed bits into the oil - there's hope yet! Two issues still to go though.

 

Had a good look round the Sunstrand Ian and couldn't find any unblanked orifices, again good thinking  . It obviously had a ram once apon a time but I thought I'd better do some checking up tonight where the plumbing for this would have been connected before running the tranny in case I've missed somewhere.

 

The other issue was the gimpy hub, not the one with the bolt through it which isn't very clever but will do for now. The keyway was badly damaged and widened in the other hub and the axle all but unusable also. Where did all this metal go?

 

 

The hub was easy in that I kept the old ones from the C-100 which weren't good but way better that what was on this axle. Took ages with a very fine file to patiently locate and clean up the high points on the axle so that the replacement hub would slide on and off.

 

My thoughts as a temporary fix are to clean out the grease etc, surpisingly the key is still pretty good but I need to clean it up and the keyway in the replacement hub, then maybe grease the key as a release agent and make good the shaft for now with some JB Weld. Hopefully it will last long enough to be able to try out the transmission. Thoughts guys?

 

Andy

 

[Anglo Traction 759]

Good news on the Engine Andy...bonus!. Also that the Tranny is ok- ish.

As for the temporary fix on the Shaft Keyway, JB or the original Araldite formulation is good (not the 5 minute set one).

 

I had a slight wallow in one keyway on the C-120, so swapped the shafts around so the repair would be to the front to take the predominant (fwd) load off it.

I also mixed the adhesive with clean metal filings to increase it's mass density and as you say, greased the Woodruff Key to act as a release agent.

So far it is fine and shows no sign of deterioration, even with a few hard Clutch drops in reverse (early hub style with just one Sq head bolt ).

[meadowfield 2,545]

That's one worn keyway Andy, good look with filling it!

[Anglo Traction 759]

Ok , I confess . I felt the same as Mark with the size of the Wallowed Keyway. A lot worse than mine is/was.  I'll keep them  for you. 

[Stigian 1,234]

Ouch Andy, that key-way is rather chewed up to say the least!!

 

My thoughts would be to make a brass or copper key to fit the key way and back fill around it with weld.. The key should pop back out of the hole as weld won't stick to it..

Let me know if you need any help with this.

[meadowfield 2,545]

you could do a Lars and cut a fresh keyway on the other side with a dremel....

[wheeledhorseman 573]

Thanks for following and chipping in with ideas guys. Set in context there was always going to be a major issue (or two) with this tractor otherwise I'm sure Jeff would have fixed it up rather than deciding it was not worth taking up the challenge. At the price I paid it was ideal for spares. The fact that the Kohler probably only needs a decoke and valve grind is, as you say Richard, a real bonus though like the tranny you can only really tell when it's tested under load.

 

Re the tranny axles, if you think the one I photographed is bad, you should see the other side Mark! It looks much worse with a great hole drilled through where the keyway once was. I was thinking about your copper and weld idea yesterday Ian as you've mentioned it before in a thread, it's certainly a possibility for the future but first I need to see if the tranny is actually any good inside so it's worth a shot at using the better (though less than perfect) hub and some JB. It only has to last long enough for me to try out the tranny at this stage. There was too much play between the hub and axle with the old one as well as the keyway in it being worn to double it's width by the floating woodruff key! The filing I refered to was to tidy up the distortion round  what was once a slot in the axle Mark so that the better hub would slide on.

 

The whole arrangement was poorly designed to my mind Richard. Firstly, the original single set screw, which in the case of an auto axle doesn't even apply force to the centre of the key when the hub is correctly positioned on the axle. Adding a second set screw obvious improved things but results in a different issue that I know from the D. The hardened end of the second screw bites into the softish steel the axle is made from and distorts the metal around the biting point making the hub very difficult to pull off.

 

I'll keep you posted, hopefully painting today, if not I'll press on with this 'gimpy horse'.

 

Andy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dodgemike 52]

I am lucky my dad was a nut on

maintenance. And all his parts

at the time were WH

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

[Anglo Traction 759]

Just a note for you on the Axle front Andy, They are the same axles as the Manual 8 speed (30916), in case you can swap in some. ...... I  must get my finger out and pull the ones out of my spare Tranny and get them Hardness tested, so I can look to reproduce them. 

[dodgemike 52]

I have to state my usual ignorance

disclaimer. When I asked for parts

I was so excited that I did not see

Andy's location. (duh). And now

that I am a member of this forum,

I know where to get proper decals.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

[wheeledhorseman 573]

I am lucky my dad was a nut on

maintenance. And all his parts

at the time were WH

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

 

Great looking tractor - don't know that mine is ever going to look like that again. I like the chains and weights and I'm going to show my ignorance now in asking are they the plastic type designed to be filled with sand - they look just too big to be solid.

 

 

Just a note for you on the Axle front Andy, They are the same axles as the Manual 8 speed (30916), in case you can swap in some. ...... I  must get my finger out and pull the ones out of my spare Tranny and get them Hardness tested, so I can look to reproduce them. 

 

Hardness Richard? I'm no engineer but I'd say from working on this axle that it's made from bog standard mild steel bar. I started tidying up the raised surface where the key had pushed the steel out and up by using what I'd consider a fine file. It was too aggressive so I resorted to one of those that kind of polishes more than cuts. Maybe they induction hardened the splined end after it was cut but the end I'm working on hasn't been hardened. The fact that Lars cut a keyway with a dremel tends to support this I think.

 

BTW if this tranny turns out to be good you've got your first customer for some replacement shafts. I do have what I think is a good 8 speed but it would be pointless raiding bits off it for this one though the interchangeability is useful to know for future emergency repairs - thanks.

 

Found the time today to get the temporary fix underway and the greased key has been put into the slot  chasm with some JB and held in place by the hub with the set screw so that everything is in line. There will be a little extra JB to add tomorrow without the hub in place as I didn't want it to overspill at the first stage. While I was doing this a thought came to mind - how about filling the existing chasm with weld then using my air powered grinder which takes quite small wheels to create a new longer but much shallower plain slot and use some key steel bar. Using the later hubs with two screws the hub would stay on perhaps / maybe? Just a thought.

 

I think I've finally sorted out the lift ram conundrum after a second evening on the toro site. C-121 autos didn't have a hydrualic lift, what I have here is the an adapted manual lift lever to take a standard ram, the end of a WH one would not attach to this. So it looks like the start of a project that was never completed at some point in the tractor's life. The tranny shows no signs that additional hoses were ever fitted as far as I can tell given so much got sprayed with fresh paint. I did think of doing this with the C-120 auto till I discovered how much a ram and control valve would cost from the US and that Sundstrand didn't always machine ports into the block that weren't going to be used.

 

One bonus though, the tractor was used to plow or rotovate originally I guess. Shame that the sleeve hitch has gone but the conduit and cable which looks to be original is still there attached to the chain dangling at the back. Will take a closer look tomorrow.

 

 

I have to state my usual ignorance

disclaimer. When I asked for parts

I was so excited that I did not see

Andy's location. (duh). And now

that I am a member of this forum,

I know where to get proper decals.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

 

Your side of the big pond you have 'vinylguy', over here we have 'meadowfield'. Our restos just wouldn't be the same without these guys' skills and enthusiasm.

 

Andy