Decal colour question

[wheeledhorseman 579]

There's a little decal mystery that I'd forgotten about until I finally got my dump carts into the workshop (at long last!) It concerns the backgound color of the 'Wheel Horse' stickers as used on the hood and rear fender of the early C series and the dump carts.

 

These are mainly a bright WH red as is the case with my 1977 C-100 which is certainly unmolested and has its original factory paint and decals. The decals on my 1975 C-120 auto were on a dark red background though as far as I could tell the tractor looked as though it had been given a respray possibly to freshen it up when first traded back in at the dealers so the OEM decals used were almost certainly post 1975. A later owner daubed it with paint by hand getting some on the decals but when the decals were removed there was no sign that they had been masked off for the early respray.

 

I kind of just passed it off to being an aging effect though one would expect fading / lightening rather than darkening which brings me to my 10 cu ft cart which is difficult to date precisely as it has no ID plate. Despite the condition of the cart which has never been repainted the decals are in very good condition and are on a dark red background. I noticed today that the deep red is pretty much heading towards WH maroon colour used on the decals of the 2-3-400 series tractors as I have a little 210 in the shop at the moment waiting for some work to get it going.

 

It's a pain that the cart has no ID plate otherwise I could put a year to these dark red background stickers but the warning decal on the cart is silver legend on black background rather than the customary white on red so perhaps 1978/9 ish. Best comparison photo I have to hand is below.

 

 

The photo qulity isn't great but the difference between the C-100 and the cart is reasonably clear. Does anyone have any info to offer? Were WH begining to think of the change to dark red / maroon becoming part of the livery and experimenting? It's just got me curious again.

 

Andy

 

 

[meadowfield 2,754]

Andy,

I think there's a bit of the fergie thing going on with wheel horses... Paint everything battleship grey, and everyone is a slightly different shade

No two wheel horses ever seem to match!

[Charlie Smith 142]

I must say Andy, I had never seen your cart until now, but anyone would think I copied you with my new cart!

[AMC RULES 37,196]

Paint from different parts of the same tractor don't even match.    

[Anglo Traction 761]

Hi Andy, I can't give you a factual answer, but a theory.

 

It is possible that if those decals are original, they may have made a batch of them in '77' using the darker Red that is used on the Decals for the '78' Models (in the U.S initially, as I believe that was when they changed the decal style).

 

They may have used them for implements and/or Export Models.  First time I've seen the darker ones though.

[wheeledhorseman 579]

Paint differences I understand - from experience so far with my tractors and ones I've parted, batches varied in both initial colour and the extent to which they turned towards an orange hue over time in sunlight. Looking at my 216 you'd swear it must have been painted orange originally but reveal a part that hasn't been exposed to sunlight and it's still WH red. Other batches of paint seemingly have kept the red colour better than others.

 

Small variations in the shade of the red part of vinyl stickers I also accept in terms of different batches but the difference I've observed on the C-120 and the cart was essentially a different colour completely though it's not clear in the photo. I'm not making it up, and I know it's kind of anal, but there were vinyls with WHish red with variations of shade but essentially red none the less and at some point vinyls with a dark almost maroon red. It could have been a random batch of course but the fact that the colour isn't far from the maroon adopted for the later tractors got me wondering if it wasn't part of the change process.

 

 

I must say Andy, I had never seen your cart until now, but anyone would think I copied you with my new cart!image.jpg

 

 

There are some differences Charlie but only because mine is an early WH cart that didn't bolt together for the dealer to assemble it, instead it was welded up at the factory with a one piece floor. I'll post some pics when the resto gets under way. Later carts were certainly made by Agrifab for WH and as far as I can tell the ones branded Lambert or WH were identical to the Agrifab though later Agrifabs were, as you observed in your thread, painted black.  Again, it's anal I realise, but I'd love to know if early agrifabs were also welded rather than bolt together construction which would indicate that WH simply outsourced them from the start or if WH designed and built the originals but they were uneconomic to ship as complete carts so outsourced to Agrifab who came up with the sort of flat pack approach. Like the vinyl decals - all part of WH history that you can't get from books and that's why it interests me.

 

Andy

 

 

[Anglo Traction 761]

 I'm not making it up, and I know it's kind of anal, but there were vinyls with WHish red with variations of shade but essentially red none the less and at some point vinyls with a dark almost maroon red. It could have been a random batch of course but the fact that the colour isn't far from the maroon adopted for the later tractors got me wondering if it wasn't part of the change process.

Andy

It may be like I said, when the last batch was produced at the end of 77 , but they ran out of the old Vinyl Ink of the previous Red before the end of the Old Decal 'Print Run' period and used a new delivery stock of the later Maroon Red.

 

It could also be similar to the Red used on the Red/Grey of 69-72 decals? (aware you haven't any of those in your stable). 

 

WH decals and indeed most Vinyl type Decals are pretty colourfast, even after years in the Sun/all weathers like my C-120 had been exposed to. Depends on the Ink quality. 

 

I was in the Silk Screen Printing Trade for 6 years from '68 - 74', and during my actual printing period, I used Inks by Sericol on Vinyl etc.

Excellent quality and even the 'Fade Prone' colour Red was resilient. WH decal's colours are just as 'Fast' and not UV affected as much as Paint.   

 

Shame that Ed Mayhew isn't still producing Decals, sure he would have known, he was licensed by Toro to reproduce them from the original WH OEM patterns, and colours etc (decals over a certain age, about 30years I believe) . I have a set of his on my '72' Raider........ That is not to decry the Decals of Terry and Mark on here of course, just saying!.

 

So I agree, little Sticker anomalies like these along with Model/Serial nbrs, Seats, Steering Wheels, Safety Switches that (mostly on Euro Horses) need to be recorded if possible.....All WH History in a way. 

[Charlie Smith 142]

Richard,

Would that be the red/grey decals my 70's raider ??

If so I must say you may be right! I did notice that the decals on mine was darker then everyone's at the Ardingly round up! However I don't think they are still as dark as the ones on Andy's trailer!

Actually looking at the pictures together now, it doesn't look far off

[Anglo Traction 761]

Yes that's right Charlie,  These are Ed Mayhew's Decals on my 72 Raider 12 - 

 

One can only go by the image colour to suggest a similarity, but shows another possibility.

 

 

 

 

[wheeledhorseman 579]

Thanks for the responses guys - picking up a couple of points....

 

Richard, I agree entirely about Mark's (Meadowfield) decals and would recommend to anyone. Mark has produced various 'custom' decals for me in the past where examples on my particular tractor differed from examples already on file which has been much appreciated.

 

Your comment about the printing industry made me remember the experience we had when I was in school management and we had the school logo redesigned and brought up to date. We were given what I remember as being the 'pantone' numbers for the colours used so that printing companies could accurately reproduce them. This worked well on the whole but there were occasions when the dark red (almost maroon) colour came out as a bright red not unlike WH red. Oddly we didn't have the same problem with the shade of grey also used. It used to bug me when this happened but the majority of people didn't seem to notice or where not at all bothered by it.

 

Charlie, thanks for the example of the earlier red / grey style decals - Richard is correct that I don't have any examples of these in my stable but have obviously seen them at shows and in photos. Looking at your photo I'd say the shade falls within likely standard variation. The red on my dump cart decals is much darker then this which brings to mind the decals on Chris Sutton's custom horse at last year's round up. Can't swear to it now but weren't those on the darker red background?

 

Anyway, I don't have to decide just yet whether to put a standard set of decals on the 10 cu ft cart that will be taken as being correct or to reproduce what was actually on it from factory i.e. three large sized WH on dark red background and a silver on black warning decal. I'll be starting a thread on the cart projects soon in the main section so will see what further info turns up.

 

 

[Charlie Smith 142]

Andy here's a picture of Chris's, I do believe you are correct, they are darker! Sorry in advance if the picture loads bad quality,

[meadowfield 2,754]

I've printed quite a few sets of the slightly darker ones on the raiders including my brothers and Ians 6x6. but it never just comes dark enough... I now only print two different reds - I cannot cater for the different enamels everyone paints with, but hope that they still fit quite well.

 

The decals on Chris tractor are very dark - I've never seen any of that style this dark other than his. Also the outline is very square which I've not seen either. They are printed by Dave at machinery decals, because the quality of his other decals are so good, I have to assume he has seen this style and copied them. However personally I don't think the long dark ones look just right..

[wheeledhorseman 579]

Thanks Charlie, the photo is pretty good and that's the sort of background colour on the dump cart decals.

 

I'm no expert on decals Mark, hence the question in the first place. I remember the unusual 'squareness' but the cart decals are standard WH shape I think. The dark backround colour looks sort of the same to me though.

 

Anyway, plenty of time for me to mull it over as there's much work to do on both carts - I've started a thread here:

 

Out of interest neither cart has an ID tag so precise dating is difficult. The smaller cart has the Wheel Horse on silver foil type decal which I'm thinking dates it to the 60s along with the other attachments I got at the same time which also have this decal. Any info on dating this also welcome.

 

Andy

[Charlie Smith 142]

Talking about the ID tags now, sorry changing the subject as I'm now interested into dating something, does that silver foil decal roughly date to the 60's as I have a wheel horse snow plough! But no ID tag, here's a pic of the decal is it safe to say its a 60's one as I've also seen one with a newer wheel horse sticker on, mine has this, the old foil sticker,

[meadowfield 2,754]

Yes, that's likely to be pre 1970 based on the decal....

If you've got the original rear mount and the handle style it might be easier to work out which model.

My guess is 6-1111 or 6-4111

Edited January 7, 2014 by meadowfield