jimaasg 0 #1 Posted October 25, 2013 My 1991 416h has a electrical issue after starting it the starter will keep engaging and disengaging. Traced it back to pc board if I unplug it then it stops doing it. I can't figure out why the pc board has anything to do with it. Does anybody have any info that can help me fix the problem. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,393 #2 Posted October 25, 2013 See if these diagrams help http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/files/file/2379-tractor-1990-1991-416-h-wiring-detailed-492-4509pdf/ Garry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martin 2,133 #3 Posted October 25, 2013 trying to figure this one out and would be interested in seeing what others have to say. the pc board would still need a start signal from the ignition switch in order to energize the starter, i would think, unless the pc board has a short maybe....... how did you trace it to the pc board? the demystification guide (the manual garry referenced above) is a good source for diagnosing electrical problems. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimaasg 0 #4 Posted October 25, 2013 trying to figure this one out and would be interested in seeing what others have to say. the pc board would still need a start signal from the ignition switch in order to energize the starter, i would think, unless the pc board has a short maybe....... how did you trace it to the pc board? the demystification guide (the manual garry referenced above) is a good source for diagnosing electrical problems. My buddy who is a electrician came over and we tested everything even tried a new relay and for what ever reason the voltage does not close to blue wire to starter. We pulled pc just to check wires and decided to start the tractor and if we unplugged pc the starter stopped trying to engage. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martin 2,133 #5 Posted October 26, 2013 i think i read somewhere that the tractor should operate ok without the board connected. i think it was in the manual mentioned above. could be mistaken though, i should go back and read...... ive been doing a bit of reading on the 416H electrical as i have some finicky problems as well. couple things i would check, as i had a few issues with starting myself, is the starter switch and the molex connector down low as well.... my starter switch was shorting inside and then dead, and the terminals on the back were giving problems as well. sounds similar to what you are experiencing.... there are a lot of areas where terminals can give you problems on this model... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martin 2,133 #6 Posted October 26, 2013 (edited) if you look on page 7-62 the wiring diagram shows circuits for start, pto and seat connected at the pc board plug and continuing to the respective destinations. if the plug is disconnected i can see no way how this could affect the starting of the tractor. page 3-13 in the glossary describes the light module which is the pc board you are talking about. manual states that it has no affect on the operation of the tractor if disconnected. i also see no difference from the wiring diagram of harness from molex connector to pc board if the board or just the molex connector is disconnected. Edited October 26, 2013 by Martin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimaasg 0 #7 Posted October 26, 2013 if you look on page 7-62 the wiring diagram shows circuits for start, pto and seat connected at the pc board plug and continuing to the respective destinations. if the plug is disconnected i can see no way how this could affect the starting of the tractor. page 3-13 in the glossary describes the light module which is the pc board you are talking about. manual states that it has no affect on the operation of the tractor if disconnected. i also see no difference from the wiring diagram of harness from molex connector to pc board if the board or just the molex connector is disconnected. I'm trying to figure out why the pc board is effecting this would like to get it fixed. I also noticed the key switch I have does not have a ground on it just got the right one with ground but there is no ground wire there to connect to it. My dealer said every 416h he worked on had one I looked and there is no pigtail anywhere has anybody else seen this? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martin 2,133 #8 Posted October 26, 2013 you dont have a ground on a standard ignition switch, only magneto. the correct switch has no ground..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martin 2,133 #9 Posted October 26, 2013 (edited) page 3-27 of the demystification guide shows a diagram of the correct switch...... page 3-28 shows a 6 terminal switch which has ground. Edited October 26, 2013 by Martin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimaasg 0 #10 Posted October 26, 2013 you dont have a ground on a standard ignition switch, only magneto. the correct switch has no ground..... If you look at the page 7-62 it shows switch with ground but no ground wire that goes to it. My dealer said I should run a ground he said hes never seen one without it but I have a hard time believing I have the only one without it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martin 2,133 #11 Posted October 26, 2013 you dont have a ground on a standard ignition switch, only magneto. the correct switch has no ground..... If you look at the page 7-62 it shows switch with ground but no ground wire that goes to it. My dealer said I should run a ground he said hes never seen one without it but I have a hard time believing I have the only one without it. yes i see it does. just make sure that the switch you got isnt for magneto ignition. if the ground just grounds the switch body and not a terminal that would connect to a magneto you would be ok. Ive only ever seen 5 terminal switches on this ignition type, but i dont have a lot of experience with these later year tractors. i dont know why you would need a ground, the 5 terminal switches worked fine without one for decades...... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ARK 9 #12 Posted November 6, 2013 Break the starter into 2 regions, 1 the safety low current: meaning seat, clutch, brake and tie into the PC as a guide to allow the starter to work. The starter is a large current draw device and thus wiring to it is very simple: but every joint, connection and switch which includes a hand operated star switch must be good and work as designd. Gronding is very important as the - round from the starter goes to the frame and the grounded frame is a major conductor to the battery. Put simply the starter switch energizes the big relay, the starter solenoid that carries large current feeding the DC series wound motor that can use up to 3x the current. This motor is designed to be over-loaded and that is why you must allow it time to cool before trying to start the motor again. Eliminating all the safeties allows you to see if the motor starts and stops with the main switch. The motor running after the engine starts can be the solenoid sticking on, solenoids a nothing more than big relays, some with a single + for control, some with a + and - feeding the coil to energize the big relay. Those with just a + are physically attached to the frame work to get the -. The DC series wound motors provide lots of torque to start a dead, cold motor, but over heating them from too many starts will burn them out. Inside the starter motors is a large armature rotating on bearings with power 12 V coming through the commutator where the brushes a dielectric, rub against the copper of the commutator and fill the insulated spaces between the bars with carbon. As a dielectric the carbon with 12V applied conducts but since the armature and commutator are out of alignment when tis takes place all hell breaks loose, killing the battery, killing the starter motor, drawing greater hight current thus killing joints, copper cable, and wiping out current devices like solenoids. PM is always needed to keep electrons where they should be and away from area they should not be. After a machine is 3 years old it ages mechanically, hydraulically, electrically. But since we can not see electrons the aging process is ignored but all the same everything gets older. The last thing to manifest itself is the aging electrics. How to keep machines young, not in looks but in operation: We know to change all fluids. Keep it clean, but water ages metals, oxides or rust inhibits turning, rubbing and conduction. We all know to grease bearings, knuckles, sliding joints. Do the same for wires, connections, joints, devices…keep them insulated if they are already, keep the clean, tight. Do not use dielectric greases until you learn about them, LEARN HOW TO USE A MULTIMETER. Keep wiring neat and loomed, black tape at the least, learn to use a quality contact cleaner or brake cleaner, a compressor and use the plug male and female parts to rub the joint and blow out the crap. Regular PM will do wonders but needs to be done even if things are working. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
