Hydraulic hoses - fitting sizes - etc.

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

I've got a 1980 C175, early model with Sundstrand. 

 

One of the 45° swivel fittings on the lift cylinder is leaking and I want to get that fixed.  It's not the O-rings, the leak is at the swivel itself, on the hose.

 

I've searched through the forums looking to see if the info I need has been posted, and there are bits and pieces here and there...

 

Of course the hoses are now made of Unobtainium so I need to have them made up.

 

The best approach to replacing these hoses appears to be to use STRAIGHT hoses with the JIC 37° fittings and the proper adapters.

 

I've got a shop nearby that can make up the hoses for me, but they don't stock the smaller size fittings, so I'm going to purchase them myself and they will make them up.

 

Finally, my questions, and confusion...

 

My part list (and looking at the machine) shows that there are (5) 45° ends, (2) 90° ends, and (1) straight end.

 

It also shows TWO different size O-rings, (4) 973370 and (4) 973310.

 

Does anyone know what size these rings are?

 

Are some of the fittings SAE #4 (4/16ths) and some SAE #5 (5/16ths)?

 

This PDF shows #5 fittings:

 

http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/files/getdownload/6344-lift-hydraulic-valve-and-cylinder-sm-810242r3pdf/

 

If I understand these adapters correctly,  the 'ORB' end (with O-ring) would thread into the cylinder or valve with the hose end pointing the required direction, and then the 'locknut' would thread down and squeeze the O-ring and secure the adapter.  Is that correct?

 

image courtesy discounthydraulics.com

 

I know I could take the machine apart and determine, but it's not leaking badly enough to be 'down', and I still need to use while the parts are coming.

 

Any help?

Edited July 13, 2013 by Jeffpicks

[Trouty56 567]

I have bought some of these before for a Charger and I'm pretty sure I went from JIC4 swivel ends to a JIC4 male to SAE#5 ORB adapter.....On the later tractors there are some SAE#6 ORB's also (the lines from the hydro to the valve).  On Eatons I don't know.....

There are threads available on some of this stuff....

[JamesBe1 84]

Yeah, I went through the same thing last time I replaced the lift cylinder hoses on my C145. It was a real education. 

 

I think I got most of what I needed from surpluscenter.  I couldn't track down 45deg adaptors, so I just went with straight adaptors and 90deg adaptors where appropriate.  It was a real pain, but in the end it worked.

[JamesBe1 84]

 

Does anyone know what size these rings are?

 

Are some of the fittings SAE #4 (4/16ths) and some SAE #5 (5/16ths)?

 

 

If I understand these adapters correctly,  the 'ORB' end (with O-ring) would thread into the cylinder or valve with the hose end pointing the required direction, and then the 'locknut' would thread down and squeeze the O-ring and secure the adapter.  Is that correct?

 

 

 

1) Not sure what size orings they are, but your best bet is to pick up an oring kit (pretty cheap on ebay), and match them up when the time comes.  You can borrow mine if you want.  Also, you can take the old ones off and run to the local hardware store to match them up.  Most places have a kit or two or three.

 

2) Between the cylinder and the pump, I had to use two different sizes of fittings.  Yours may be different in that they are all the same, but you might want to be mindful of that.

 

3) Yep, you are correct about the way the locknut on the ORB fitting works.

 

Wish I could be more helpful.  I went through this over a year ago, and I remember pulling my hair out trying to determine what I needed between all the different sizes and styles of adaptors and fittings.

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

Thanks for the replies!

 

The adapters will come with the O-rings, so I won't need to get them separately.  I asked about the size hoping that it would give me some clues as to the fitting sizes that I need to order.  I'm thinking that the fact that there are two different O-ring sizes shown in the parts breakdown means that there are two different thread sizes on the original hoses.  Why else would there be two different size rings?

 

The hoses from the transmission to the valve use one size O-ring, the ones from the valve to the lift cylinder use another.  I suspect that the ones from the tranny to the valve are #5 and the ones from the valve to the cylinder are #4.  I wish someone could tell me for sure...

 

The way the grass is growing this year means that I can't afford for the machine to be down for a week by stripping it down to determine sizes and ordering parts.  I want to have everything I need before I put a wrench to it.

 

I can say that after taking the covers off for a better look this afternoon that the OEM hose appears to be 100R3 1/4" for all four hoses.  100R3 is not a wire braided hose, but fiber braided, two layers.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Jeffpicks

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

Just went out to the shop for another look. 

 

No matter what the pictures in the part diagram look like, the hoses from the tranny to the valve are NOT 45° fittings at the valve end. 

 

They are 90° at the tranny and STRAIGHT fittings at the valve.

 

Hose from front of cylinder to rear center port on valve is 45° to 45° as shown in diagram.

 

Hose from rear of cylinder to front center port on valve is 45° to straight, also as shown.

 

So, to adapt from ORB to the JIC 37° fittings, one would need:

 

THREE straight

 

THREE 45°

 

TWO 90°

 

It looks like the easiest way to accomplish changing these hoses is going to be to remove the hoses from the tranny and the cylinder, and remove the two bolts that hold the valve in, and pull the whole valve with hoses attached.  Install new hoses on valve, thread hoses back through the hole, reattach valve, connect hoses to cylinder and tranny.

 

I'm wondering now if would be worth my while to rebuild the valve and cylinder while it's all apart...

[MalMac 1,332]

I would while you got it apart. Remember that on Hydraulics after you fix one leak the problem will just move on down the line to the next weakest point. On a machine that old it is probably time to start replacing things. Hydraulics get very envious, one hose see's where you fixed the one next to it then it will start to demand attention and right on down the line until everybody gets noticed and attended to. That has been my experience with hydraulics especially with older hydraulics that have never been or had to be worked on. You heard the Ol saying opening up a can of worms.

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

You heard the Ol saying opening up a can of worms.

 

Sure have... only this one looks more like SNAKES!  Black ones! they look poisonous!

Edited July 14, 2013 by Jeffpicks

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

OK, I finally, after much searching, found the thread I saw a while back.

 

 

A wealth of info on easier (no hose shop needed) hose replacement.

 

I'm going to see how much inflation has hit the market since that thread was posted.

 

The answer to my question about fitting sizes seems to be:

 

The tranny and the supply and return ports on the valve are #6,

 

The cylinder and the two ports on the valve that feed it are #5.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Jeffpicks

[JamesBe1 84]

Here is another good thread on the topic:

 

[bmuone 15]

Just went through replacing all those hoses and stuff. You will get it done....but go ahead and ask for forgiveness now.

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

 

You will get it done....but go ahead and ask for forgiveness now.

 

Yeah, BEFORE I do all that cursing and swearing!

 

I ordered my parts.  Kits for the valve and cylinder coming from ClassicKitchens... adapters from DiscountHydraulics... SpeedFlex hose and fittings from Earl's.

 

Yes, the SpeedFlex fittings are sorta expensive... but they ARE reusable.  SpeedFlex hose is a bit cheaper than 100R3.  Oooops, my bad... R3 is about $2.40 / ft, SpeedFlex is about $3.40

 

The fitting cost is offset by the fact that I won't have to pay the hose shop $4 a fitting for them to crimp ($32 saving right there)

 

All totaled, I'll be in with 4 new hoses for a bit over $100 or so, and no trip to the hose shop or having to wait for the job.

 

I'm going to order a few extra 'olives' and feet of hose to keep in stock.

 

I like the fact that if a hose does 'blow' I can fix it in a matter of an hour or two and get back to mowing. 

 

My camera is broke... I would like to photo document the whole process... but I can't afford the hoses AND a new camera!  sorry...

Edited July 15, 2013 by Jeffpicks

[Butch 194]

I was told they no longer made the fitting for the left rear. I looked everywhere. The problems with the other fittings is the transmission

case interfered with them and you couldn't thread them in. I forgot what I ended up doing. I also used strong hoses which were a bear

to bend under the lift controller.

[JamesBe1 84]

 

 

You will get it done....but go ahead and ask for forgiveness now.

 

 

My camera is broke... I would like to photo document the whole process... but I can't afford the hoses AND a new camera!  sorry...

 

 

Well at least you got your priorities right.

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

 

I was told they no longer made the fitting for the left rear. I looked everywhere

 

Not sure what you mean Butch?  "Left rear" of what?

 

 

used strong hoses which were a bear to bend under the lift controller.

 

I could see if using the R2 hose it could be a problem.  The stock ones that are on there are R3, which are more flexible.  This type has a fiber braid rather than metal.

 

The SuperFlex hose is even more flexy than that, and smaller O.D. too...

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

 

Well at least you got your priorities right.

 

Ummmm... well... that's debatable, depending on perspective!

 

If you knew how much I spend on beer......................  hic! 

Edited July 18, 2013 by Jeffpicks

[JamesBe1 84]

I used the R2 hoses from surpluscenter.  They were a real pain to thread through to the right places.  If I had to do it again, I would probably make more of an effort to find the right length R3 hoses. 

 

The tough part was trying to thread four hoses through the ~2" hole in the side, up to the implement valve.  It may be easier on yours, but I almost ran our of curse words on mine.

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

 

I almost ran our of curse words on mine.

 

I've got a pretty good supply, I'm gonna have to tell my neighbor to keep his kids indoors that day.

 

Did you take your valve out to connect the hoses first?  That's what I'm planning, since I'll be resealing it at the same time anyway.

 

I'm thinking it won't be too bad to thread all four hoses down through the hole and guide the valve into place.

 

We'll see...

 

Got my reseal kits from Eldon today, Thanks Eldon!  FAST SHIPPING!

I should get most of the adapters tomorrow, the 2 45° were backordered but being drop-shipped from their supplier.

Hoses and end fittings have been shipped but might not make it here till next week from Cali.

[JamesBe1 84]

 

 

I almost ran our of curse words on mine.

 

 

 

Did you take your valve out to connect the hoses first?  That's what I'm planning, since I'll be resealing it at the same time anyway.

 

 

 

Yes, that's exactly what I did!

 

It's pretty much impossible to get at the connections on the valve body with the valve in place.  Even with doing it that way, with the R2 hoses, I could barely get the valve back in place.  I hope yours is easier.

 

If you need to borrow any swear words, let me know.  You may need them.

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

 

I hope yours is easier.

 

Me too!  I think they will be, given that I'm using that SpeedFlex hose in the linked thread.  This stuff is quite flexy from what I've read.  It's primary use is brake lines on hot rod / race / custom cars.  It's much smaller O.D. too.

 

 

If you need to borrow any swear words, let me know.

 

I sure will!  I may be able to get to this next weekend, so keep yer ears open, you might just be able to hear me from where you are...

[Butch 194]

 

 

I was told they no longer made the fitting for the left rear. I looked everywhere

 

Not sure what you mean Butch?  "Left rear" of what?

 

 

used strong hoses which were a bear to bend under the lift controller.

 

The 4 ends of the 4 hoses. As you sit on the tractor it would be on your left below your ass. I had 4 new hoses made up and was told that this fitting was no longer made. I think it might have gone into the oil filter mount. Don't remember because it's been awhile. But getting a fitting in there to work and not hit or interfere with anything was a challenge. The guys from the hydraulic shop gave me a handful of fitting to take home and try. So I took them home and played with them and got something to work. I just don't remember what I did.

 

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

Hi Butch,  I wonder if we are talking about the same thing? 

 

I'm 'borrowing' these pics from the other thread ( ) to show what I'm replacing.

images courtesy 'fiddlestix'

 

 

I have 'adapters' that go from the O-ring boss type fitting used on the machine to a 'standard' JIC 37° flare fitting.

 

At the tranny, there are two 90° adapters:

 

 

The front of the lift cylinder and one on the valve are 45° adapters.

 

The rest are all straight adapters.

 

This method allows the use of STRAIGHT fittings on all the hoses, and any shop should be able to make those up.

 

I believe that the fittings they may have told you were unobtainium are the 90° ORB fittings that go right on the end of the hose with no adapter?

 

Is that what you mean?

Edited July 20, 2013 by Jeffpicks

[Butch 194]

Jeff we're talking about the same thing. My C175 looks nothing like that. In fact one of those hoses in the back goes around the other side of my tractor

and connects underneath. And I don't even see your filter bracker where mine connects to on that side. All of your fittings look easy to replace.

 

Butch

[JamesBe1 84]

My C-145 looks very similar to the pics Jeff posted.  Except my spool valve is located in the dash column just above the cutout for the hoses.  I can' remember if I used a 90 or a straight on the front of the cylinder.  I don't recall being particularly concerned about it.  Either connector will work nicely.

 

I like the braided metal hoses that fiddlestix used.  But I'm just plain old too cheap to go that route.

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

Butch, I'm guessing you have the Eaton trans?  The one in the pics (Fiddlestixs' ;78 C161), and mine, are Sunstrand.  Mine is a very early '80 model 175... the filter on the Sundstrand isn't on a bracket as I believe the Eaton is, but rather screwed right onto the trans.

 

 

But I'm just plain old too cheap to go that route

 

When I compared the prices and added shipping and stuff, the Speedo Solution is really only about $20 more expensive.  I'll just have to drink a little less beer this month.