What would you do? With some questions.

[multihobbyguy 35]

I purchased a 520h from a fellow Red Square member to move the loader that is on my C-160. I wanted the 520 for the gear reduction steering and to add Matt's foot control as well as the wider stance. When I got to the show we worked out a deal because it was not running correctly. I finally had time to tear in to it and the typical valve seat has come loose.

There doesn't seem to be any damage other that the loose seat. I guess my question is since this is going to be a loader tractor I really don't need that big of an engine in the tractor correct? Please correct me if I am wrong. I have a 14hp k series kohler laying under the bench. I have the 16hp k series that is on the C-160 that the loader is currently on. I have a series 2 17hp under the bench also but I was planning on putting that into a 416-8 I purchased at the show and then there is the 10hp diesels that people are putting on their tractors. The diesel sounds like the most fun but I worry about irritating my neighbors as we live close to one another here and they seem noisy. I wish I would have paid more attention at the show as to how noisy they may have been. I also worry about using the hydro with the diesel as from what I have read most people are not running their diesels at 3600rpms but maybe in the 2500rpm range. Would this cause the transmission or pump problems not running at 3600rpms? I could try to use a retaining compound and peen the valve seat back into the Onan but I figure sooner or later it would eventually fail again and then I will be trying to pull it with a loader on the tractor. I guess I am wondering what route other people would take in getting the tractor driving again. If you have any insight or suggestions they would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Chris.

[DoctorHfuhruhurr 137]

What is your budget and what is the time frame you're looking to get it done in?  I ask because the diesel option seems to be the one with the largest expense and longest time but I would imagine the noise issue could be resolved with  a larger muffler.  I thought I read recently that someone put a cherry bomb on a wheel horse and that it reduced the noise a lot but I don't think it was a diesel.  

[Sparky-(Admin) 23,185]

Since the 14hp Kohler is allready out of a tractror it only makes sence to stick it in the 520 (assuming you have condemed the Onan). You'll have to mess with the wiring and all that but I would think its plenty of power for the loader pump and the Eaton hydro pump.

  And your C-160 doesn't have to get sacrificed!!

 Mike.......

[squonk 43,854]

My Power King runs a 14 HP K and powers a 7 GPM pump for the loader. but it's an all gear drive with an automotive clutch. Consider the fact the hydro trans is going to consume about 2 HP to run. Depending on how much work you do with the loader the 14 may be fine.

[multihobbyguy 35]

What is your budget and what is the time frame you're looking to get it done in?  I ask because the diesel option seems to be the one with the largest expense and longest time but I would imagine the noise issue could be resolved with  a larger muffler.  I thought I read recently that someone put a cherry bomb on a wheel horse and that it reduced the noise a lot but I don't think it was a diesel.  

The $600 to the door for the diesel is doable as far as a budget is concerned. I would like to have the tractor ready to help with the yard work come this fall. Of the other three engines at the very least I would want to pull them apart and overhaul them and make sure nothing needs bored or turned so that I don't have to worry about the engine for awhile.

 

Since the 14hp Kohler is allready out of a tractror it only makes sence to stick it in the 520 (assuming you have condemed the Onan). You'll have to mess with the wiring and all that but I would think its plenty of power for the loader pump and the Eaton hydro pump.

  And your C-160 doesn't have to get sacrificed!!

 Mike.......

I have spent the last few days reading about the Onans coming undone time and time again so I think I will just part it out on Ebay so that others may live. People posted that it was costing $1000-$1500 for a complete rebuild. If it came to that I would just do one of those nice Honda repowers but I really don't want to spend that kind of money on the engine of a loader only tractor. The more I think about the less I want to part out the C-160 but then again I really don't need it after I switch the loader over.

 

My Power King runs a 14 HP K and powers a 7 GPM pump for the loader. but it's an all gear drive with an automotive clutch. Consider the fact the hydro trans is going to consume about 2 HP to run. Depending on how much work you do with the loader the 14 may be fine.

I think that I am coming down to either a diesel repower or rebuilding the 14hp k series. I figure the two engines would do about the same amount of work and neither would use that much fuel.

 

 

Thank you DoctorHfuhruhurr, Sparky and squonk  for taking your time to give me advice. I will keep reading and soliciting advice from the great people on Red Square. If anyone else has experience or a thought I would appreciate it, Thanks again, Chris.

[1054josh 25]

I might be way off on this but why couldn't one take the engine off and have someone with a tig welder just rig a small bead of aluminumover just the edge of the seat and then lap the valve in so it get a perfect seal. The only reason I say this is cuz 15 years ago I had a seat of seats welded into a 2.0L VW buggy engine that had lost the exhaust seats from an over heat situation. And I actually was able to revive it again rather than get a new set of heads at about 600.00 to 800.00 depending on who h heads I had. Just my 2cents. Good luck with whatever you decide.

[littleredrider 409]

I have a 10 horse diesel and it sips fuel. I ran it dang near wide open mowing the lawn for my mother for bout an hour or so, used 1/2" of fuel off the top. It's barely a 1 gallon tank. IMO has more power than a 14 horse, getting in heavy grass while climbing a hill the motor didn't even notice....

[DoctorHfuhruhurr 137]

The 10Hp diesel at  www.a1biofuel.net/index.html  is $569 with free shipping.  The "How to Buy" link on that site says there's a 5% discount if pay by cashiers check or money order.  That would bring it down to $540.55.  I like the diesel option personally and over time you'll save a lot on fuel costs too.  I believe I saw where a few people on here have ordered from them. 

[Catt 13]

I have a 520H and if the engine goes bad, I think I'll replace it with a single cylinder.  I wonder what was used in the 315-8?

[woodchuckfarmer 333]

I had the intake seats replaced in my onan at an engine shop and it cost me only $130 bucks

[BPjunk 184]

I had the intake seats replaced in my onan at an engine shop and it cost me only $130 bucks

 I agree with this reply. Take the head to a good machine shop and have them replace the seats, they may have to machine the seat bore and install a thicker seat but this would be far less expensive in the long run along with not having the engine swap headaches.

 

Wild Bill

Richmond, VA

[KC9KAS 4,744]

 

I had the intake seats replaced in my onan at an engine shop and it cost me only $130 bucks

 I agree with this reply. Take the head to a good machine shop and have them replace the seats, they may have to machine the seat bore and install a thicker seat but this would be far less expensive in the long run along with not having the engine swap headaches.

 

Wild Bill

Richmond, VA

 

Plus it will still be "original".

[Marv 982]

I have a C141 Auto with a loader on it. Works fine. Plenty of power.

Marvin

[fourwheels0 191]

i had a c-141 with a loader and it was fine.

i never had any lack of power from the 14hp kohler no matter how hard i worked the loader.

[JackC 617]

I would take it to a machine shop that can replace or repair the seat.

[ericj 1,579]

i have had 2 onan motors valve seats replaced at the local napa machine shop. the first one was just the intake and cost about $100.00 the 2nd had to have the intake and exhaust seats replaced and that cost $ 130.00.

i say repair and all the harder you will work it you will never hurt it

 

 

eric j

[bitten 134]

Have you thought about just putting the front end of the 520 on the 160? 

[multihobbyguy 35]

I might be way off on this but why couldn't one take the engine off and have someone with a tig welder just rig a small bead of aluminumover just the edge of the seat and then lap the valve in so it get a perfect seal. The only reason I say this is cuz 15 years ago I had a seat of seats welded into a 2.0L VW buggy engine that had lost the exhaust seats from an over heat situation. And I actually was able to revive it again rather than get a new set of heads at about 600.00 to 800.00 depending on who h heads I had. Just my 2cents. Good luck with whatever you decide.

That is a thought. I do own a tig welder. I never read where anyone had suggested that before. I will do a little investigating.

 

I have a 10 horse diesel and it sips fuel. I ran it dang near wide open mowing the lawn for my mother for bout an hour or so, used 1/2" of fuel off the top. It's barely a 1 gallon tank. IMO has more power than a 14 horse, getting in heavy grass while climbing a hill the motor didn't even notice....

The 10hp diesel sounds like fun. I will use this tractor a lot come fall and then I probably won't use it much except from time to time.

 

The 10Hp diesel at  www.a1biofuel.net/index.html  is $569 with free shipping.  The "How to Buy" link on that site says there's a 5% discount if pay by cashiers check or money order.  That would bring it down to $540.55.  I like the diesel option personally and over time you'll save a lot on fuel costs too.  I believe I saw where a few people on here have ordered from them. 

Thank you I had Google'd a lot and never came across their web site. If I decide to go that route I will definitely contact them to talk about their engine.

 

I have a 520H and if the engine goes bad, I think I'll replace it with a single cylinder.  I wonder what was used in the 315-8?

That does seem to be the easiest and cheapest option currently.

 

I had the intake seats replaced in my onan at an engine shop and it cost me only $130 bucks

I called the only machine shop I know around me and they didn't know. They were thinking $300-$400(just a wild guess he said) but said they wouldn't know until they took a look at the engine(could be more or less) They said I would have to completely disassemble the engine and bring it to them to see if they could do it and to get a actual price. I figure if I completely disassemble the engine that has 1000hrs on it I would be spending even more money buying parts(might as well overhaul it if it is all a part). It was a good thing that I called because I know now that they will work on small engines and they are only a 20min drive for me. He said he thought about $50 a hole on a air cooled engine to bore one and that they can turn the cranks and size rods for me also.

 

 

I had the intake seats replaced in my onan at an engine shop and it cost me only $130 bucks

 I agree with this reply. Take the head to a good machine shop and have them replace the seats, they may have to machine the seat bore and install a thicker seat but this would be far less expensive in the long run along with not having the engine swap headaches.

 

Wild Bill

Richmond, VA

 

Bill do you know of a machine shop between you and I? I am north of you on 95 in the Fairfax area that does good reasonable priced work that would tackle this job? I only found one shop local that might be able to do it.

[multihobbyguy 35]

 

 

I had the intake seats replaced in my onan at an engine shop and it cost me only $130 bucks

 I agree with this reply. Take the head to a good machine shop and have them replace the seats, they may have to machine the seat bore and install a thicker seat but this would be far less expensive in the long run along with not having the engine swap headaches.

 

Wild Bill

Richmond, VA

 

Plus it will still be "original".

 

I like original also. It makes it much easier to work on. I can pull up schematics and info that is correct. Also the 520 has some cool gauges  and they will mostly be useless with the other two engines.

 

I have a C141 Auto with a loader on it. Works fine. Plenty of power.

Marvin

Thank you Marv, that is very good to know. I think economically so far that is the cheapest option.

 

i had a c-141 with a loader and it was fine.

i never had any lack of power from the 14hp kohler no matter how hard i worked the loader.

Thank you also fourwheels0 I was worried that it might not have enough oomph and that I wouldn't be able to do what I wanted to do later on.

 

I would take it to a machine shop that can replace or repair the seat.

I may give that a go, It just seems like it might be expensive in my neck of the woods.

 

i have had 2 onan motors valve seats replaced at the local napa machine shop. the first one was just the intake and cost about $100.00 the 2nd had to have the intake and exhaust seats replaced and that cost $ 130.00.

i say repair and all the harder you will work it you will never hurt it

 

 

eric j

The machine shop I checked with here is a Napa also. He seemed really unsure so I am guessing that is why (i hope) I got such a high quote/ballpark figure.

 

Have you thought about just putting the front end of the 520 on the 160? 

I actually purchased a separate front end for the C-160 but I wanted Matt's foot control so that I can have one hand to steer, one had to run the controls and my foot to go back and forth. So after I paid for the tractor at the show I sold the extra front end I had.

[multihobbyguy 35]

My current plan is to try to find out what it will cost for all the gaskets and to find out what the maximum wear on the bore for a standard piston to make sure it doesn't need to be punched out. The tractor is just a few hours shy of 1000hrs. I guess I will need to tear it down whether I get it machined or part it out. If they truly want $300-400 to do one seat I will part it out. I wish I could have it done like other people and just leave the engine mostly together and then hand over the $130 dollars but the local shop said to tear it down. If someone knows of another shop within a hour or so of 22039 please let me know. Also if anyone knows what the spec/tolerances is on a std bore please let me know. Thank you to everyone that has taken the time to respond. Chris.

[546cowboy 302]

I have had three of them done. The previous owners were getting rid of them because of the valve seat problem and I bought them at bargain prices. That machine shop you mentioned is feeding you a line about dis-assembly. All you need to do is remove the engine and pull the head off, pull the valves out and they can get a seat to put in there.

 

I did have one that was pretty bad ( the opening was worn too big for a new seat ) and I had to take it to a welding shop to build up the opening so the machine shop could re-bore the opening for the valve seat.  Now all those engines had around 500 hours on them and are still running as far as I know. I still have one of them here and sold the other two. $130 sounds about right and the one with the welding wasn't that much more.

 

I am a firm believer that a 520H should stay with the Onan. Although I personally would go with the diesel if I wanted to change engines. That $1800 Honda change is out of the question in my opinion.

 

Update: From looking at your picture you have already done most of the work. There has to be a machine shop close to you that can do it. Most shops know you have a seat several thousandths larger than the opening and put it in a freezer overnight so it will fit tight when they install it. Once it warms up it is in there to stay.

Edited July 3, 2013 by 546cowboy

[JackC 617]

Google "22039 small engine repair shops".  You may need to call around and even call a John Deere dealer.  The pullers in the area may have a place to have their engine machine work done.  Guys that work at NAPA or AdvanceAuto may know some shops.

 

If you can remove the engine from the tractor and remove the intake and exhaust manifolds and everything attached to them, the engine tin, and the heads, they may be able to take it from there to fix the seat and measure the cylinder walls for wear and out of round.  If not too bad you can put it back together and run it.  Good time to have the valves adjusted and a de-carbon job.  If too badly worn at least you will know and you can proceed to part it out and use the proceeds towards a replacement.  Some have gotten away with peening (?) around the valve seat to hold it in.

[multihobbyguy 35]

I have had three of them done. The previous owners were getting rid of them because of the valve seat problem and I bought them at bargain prices. That machine shop you mentioned is feeding you a line about dis-assembly. All you need to do is remove the engine and pull the head off, pull the valves out and they can get a seat to put in there.

 

I did have one that was pretty bad ( the opening was worn too big for a new seat ) and I had to take it to a welding shop to build up the opening so the machine shop could re-bore the opening for the valve seat.  Now all those engines had around 500 hours on them and are still running as far as I know. I still have one of them here and sold the other two. $130 sounds about right and the one with the welding wasn't that much more.

 

I am a firm believer that a 520H should stay with the Onan. Although I personally would go with the diesel if I wanted to change engines. That $1800 Honda change is out of the question in my opinion.

My valve seat doesn't appear to have done any damage to the block. It will not move side to side when I put it back in and doesn't seem to have beat it back either. I think it would just require an over sized seat and to bore for the new seat. If I was going to mow and blow with this tractor I would probably do the Honda but since it will probably get some heavy use in September and October and then very intermittently the Honda is just too much. I think next week I will drain the oil and take the engine still mostly complete and actually let them look at it to see if I can leave it together. I am not sure the guy I was talking to quite understood what I was talking about the more I think about it.

 

Google "22039 small engine repair shops".  You may need to call around and even call a John Deere dealer.  The pullers in the area may have a place to have their engine machine work done.  Guys that work at NAPA or AdvanceAuto may know some shops.

 

If you can remove the engine from the tractor and remove the intake and exhaust manifolds and everything attached to them, the engine tin, and the heads, they may be able to take it from there to fix the seat and measure the cylinder walls for wear and out of round.  If not too bad you can put it back together and run it.  Good time to have the valves adjusted and a de-carbon job.  If too badly worn at least you will know and you can proceed to part it out and use the proceeds towards a replacement.  Some have gotten away with peening (?) around the valve seat to hold it in.

I asked and called around. I also did the Google. I contacted three shops, only one wanted to deal with me. I don't think there are pullers in my area. I have searched before and the closest is in PA(2-3hrs) and some in Central Va(3-4hrs). I was looking because I thought that might be something I would enjoy doing myself. I figure I won't know until I take it to them whether I want to fix or replace. Whats funny when I started this thread I had already decided it was going to get another engine I just didn't know which one. Now I guess I will see what they say and go from there. I still need to go out and check the bore to see if it is still with in tolerances and then decide how much money I would be willing to put into the engine. The gasket kit costs twice as much as the rebuild kit for a 14hp Kohler so it will be a little more pricey for sure.

[ericj 1,579]

all you need to take off like said above is the engine tin,intake, muffler,heads, wiring starter, and fly wheel. i also took the stater and trigger off before taking it to the shop. just a word of warning, my cousin took an onan to a shop that did a lot of aluminum auto heads and they charged almost $ 200.00 and double stacked to valve seats in the block. now we don't know what to do because we are afraid it wont hold up and the shop said it would work and didn't want to here any more about it, then got flooded out in a heavy rain and out of business now. so i guess just make sure they know what they are doing before you plunk good money down.

 

 

eric j

 

ps  pm me if you want to call me on the phone and talk about it 

[JackC 617]

There are resources on the internet that give rebuilding procedures.

Here is one.

 

http://www.mytractorforum.com/showthread.php?t=91204

 

Here is a company that might offer some help.

We may need to locate a resource that we can send our engines to.

 

http://onanrebuilding.com/