Chemical Engineers - I need your help

[Save Old Iron 1,571]

Anybody out there have knowledge of a dye or indicator which will dissolve in water BUT WILL NOT DISSOLVE IN GASOLINE?

 

I would love to have such an indicator to perform some "bad gas" experiments with new E blended fuels and long term effects on different components within fuel systems.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Chuck

[meadowfield 2,754]

Chuck, do a wiki search... Loads of info on that page, here in the uk we have dyes added to fuels.

Mark

[Keith 21]

I read that tapioca pearls are good for removing water from ethanol.  The tapioca can then

be dried and reused.   I don't know what tapioca would do in E10.  I thought that this low tech 

approach was interesting.  I was searching for ways to improve the life of gasoline, which 

now has about a 30 day life from the time it is produced.

 

http://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/research/2011/110913LadischTapioca.html

[Save Old Iron 1,571]

Thanks Keith. I love Tapioca - a little bit as a filler in rhubarb pie and I fear it would never make it beyond the kitchen to the fuel tank.

 

A bit more clarification on my intentions may be in order.

 

What I'm searching for is a dye that will not dissolve in or impart a coloration to gasoline but will dissolve in water only and color the phase separated water / alcohol layer precipitated from the gasoline when the gas "goes bad".

 

I would like to be able to see a clear indication of the interface layer between the gasoline sitting on top of the precipitated water / alcohol.

 

I have some aniline water soluble dye and a second packet of alcohol soluble dye coming in the mail. I just hope the water soluble is just that - only in water.

 

I also propose taking various components of a fuel system, pieces of rubber gas line, poly gas line, steel fuel bowl, aluminum fuel bowl, bowl gaskets, etc and keeping them submersed in a small amount of E10 and again E15. Lets say we store each one in a baby jar with a few ounces of fuel. Let them sit for a year and see what happens to the components.

 

I know I'm setting myself up for a big karmic "spanking" but I'll say it again, I just haven't seen the evidence of fuel system degradation in the tractors or cars I have owned for the last 10 + years.

 

Maybe I have gained favor from my allegiance to the Seafoam and Marvel Mystery snake oil gods.

[KC9KAS 4,744]

I had a paste that was applied to a long measuring "stick" and lowered into an underground storage tank. If there was water in the fuel, it would turn purple (I think).....I will check it out when I get to work.

[squonk 43,843]

We use that paste too. Forget the name though

[AMC RULES 37,196]

http://www.nationalpetroleum.net/id46.html

[stevasaurus 23,281]

I have to agree with you on this one SOI.  I put Seafoam, according to instructions on the label, in all my vehicles and horses.  I have not seen the gas degrade either...even after all winter.  I had a full tank in my 1964 Ford for over a year (this past year) with out running...started it up and drove the gas out with no problems...no stale smell either.

[dsholler 54]

I use Sta-bil in the boat motor, and live in an area where we have had e-gas for over a decade. My observation is that fuel sitting in the lines causes them to degrade pretty quickly. The bits that degrade are the hoses and plastic check valves, not the metal fittings. Chuck, I think that you need to do a different experiment. After all, what we are trying to verify is the impact of fuel (stabilized) on the various parts of the fuel system, especially the non-metallic bits. You might divide this into two, to see if there are contaminants that develop or become part of the fuel independent of any degradation of parts, and water would be a component of that (similar issue to algae in the diesel) .

[cheesegrader 433]

Be careful handling that aniline dye.

There is a very strong link between occupational exposure and transitional cell bladder cancer.

[wheeledhorseman 579]

It's all too easy to get drawn into the alcohol in gas is trashing my engine school of thought but  this blend is not a new concept at all and if you read the Kohler K series owners manual you will discover that up to 10% alcohol / 90% unleaded gas mix  is a fuel approved for Kohler engines. So one must assume that the OEM rubber components in the fuel pump and lines were not considered to be at significant additional risk on a new engine.

 

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong here but all natural rubber products degrade over a period of time in contact with petroleum based substances and will at some point need replacing. Rubber used for good quality fuel lines and other components is designed to be more resistant than say standard general purpose rubber tubing but at some point even the good quality fuel resistant type must be replaced. Alcohol in fuel makes it more aggresive but I suspect for many who have experienced carb problerms it is down to replacement of the hoses being long overdue, particularly where they may not have been fuel grade inb the first place.

 

Here in the UK we have 5% alcohol, soon it will be 10%. You can buy fuel stabilisers but they certainly aren't high profile,they are expensive, and I don't bother using them.  I like lazy experiments where I have to do nothing much so I left my mowing tractors over winter with whatever was in the tank and without draining the float bowls. They started and ran just fine when Sping finally arrived vary late this year. The next fuel they used was from a jerry can that had been strapped to the back of my jeep against emergencies since the start of the previous show season, so about a year old. They ran on that just fine. Only when that had been used up did they see any 'fresh' gas. I tried them on some higher octane 'super unleaded' to see if they ran noticeably any better the reason being that oil companies have yet to add alcohol to this over here. There was no perceptable difference that I could detect.

 

Now I'm not saying that there's no truth in what we read - gas/alcohol mix may not be at it's peak after 30 days but my tractors didn't complain about it being about a year old! It is true that alcohol by nature contains some water, even so called 'pure alcohol' aka 'absolute' contains some as it is impossible to remove it all. It is also true that alcohol tends to draw water into it though how it behaves in a 10/90 mix with gas is a little unclear so I can understand the 'experiment'. A fact that rarely gets mentioned is that alcohol / gas mix vaporises differently to pure gas in a carb but whereas this may affect high performance engines I doubt it has much effect on small engines with static ignition timing. I can't help thinking though that these truths have been hyped up by the media to the extent that we look to blame alcohol in gas for all sorts of issues that we experience. At the end of the day Kohler approved its use (up to 10%) and with no mention of using a stabiliser.

 

I suspect that the experiment may be chasing shadows though in that water is miscible with alcohol and alcohol with gas. There would have to be a lot of water in the alcohol before it began to separate out from the mix and even then the issue would be no worse than we see during the winter with automobiles where damp air drawn into the tank as gas gets used up produces water in the tank. The mystery is how does it end up round the filler pipe and under the cap when it should be at the bottom of the tank being more dense than the gas?

 

When all's said and done and, despite being an 'alcohol's trashing my tractor' sceptic, even I have started to blame it for issues that occur (such is the power of the media), then think better of it and discover that actually the blame lies elsewhere. It may be a different matter when we get 15% alcohol in the mix but for now I try to keep my tractors well maintained and haven't experienced a problem.

 

Feel free to shoot me down for being a sceptic.

 

Andy

[KC9KAS 4,744]

wheeledhorseman, there is a difference between alcohol and ethanol in the fuel.

[dbartlett1958 99]

wheeledhorseman, there is a difference between alcohol and ethanol in the fuel.

Ethanol = Ethyl Alcohol.  How is it different?

[boovuc 1,090]

SOI...I'll bounce this off our crack team of chemists, chemical engineers, alchemists, cold fusion gurus and sandwich artists at my workplace. (They should all be back from rehab tomorrow)!

We have a really good polymer biochemist that may have had some background in color indicator sciences. He may have seen something that will only attach to alcohol and not the hydrocarbon bonds. Not sure if there is anything that would light up water & alcohol and leave the hydrocarbon chain alone. 

Interesting quest!

I'll let you know tomorrow night if they have anything.

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

A couple years ago myself and a few other techs were having a discussion about what those 'red flakes' left behind in the chamber of oil fired boilers was.

 

#2 fuel oil as we know is dyed red.

 

Speculation was that the red flakes were the remains of the dye.

 

So an experiment was hatched.

 

I took two glass jars and put a few spoonfuls of the flakes in each.

 

One jar got a few ounces of K-1 Kerosene, the other got plain tap water.

 

The red flakes immediately dissolved in the water!  Turned it bright cherry red.

 

The flakes did NOT dissolve in the K-1 to our surprise!

 

It was obvious that the flakes were remains of the dye, but what was weird is that after being 'burnt' they would no longer dissolve in the fuel (K-1 is more or less the same basic structure as #2 F.O.)  The dyes chemical structure had somehow been altered by the combustion.

 

 

Also, BTW, these jars are still on the shelf in my shop and the flakes in water is a true solution.  Sitting over 3 years and the water is still red.  The K-1 has 'aged' to a light yellow, but the flakes are still sitting undissolved in the bottom of the jar.

[JackC 617]

Salt will dissolve in water but not gasoline.  There is Himalayan Pink Crystal Salt that may color the water when it dissolves.  Brown sugar might also work since it will dissolve in water but not gasoline and may color the water.  I assume you are talking about bench tests and not something that would be put in a fuel tank.

 

This company makes dyes and may have what you are looking for:

 

http://www.sunbeltcolors.com/aboutus.htm

[boovuc 1,090]

I'll bite Wheeledhorseman!

 

I understand your skepticism but in regard to ethanol causing us carburetor troubles, I offer this: 

 

Ethanol, (ethyl alcohol), is much less volatile than gasoline. Gasoline evaporates in cold weather exponentially faster than ethanol. Regular unleaded no additives gasoline's flash point is minus 50 degrees F. Ethanol's flashpoint is 55.4 degrees F. If you leave gasoline in the bowl of your carburetor for even short lengths of time, the gasoline will evaporate faster leaving a larger concentration of alcohol. (Think of the carb sitting in your garage after mowing over the hot engine). Overtime, this alcohol WILL draw moistures which will corrode the surface treatments of the exposed metal, later the actual metals of the bowl as well as the exposed metals of the needle valves and floats. The moisture is miscible in the alcohol. The alcohol in small percentages is miscible in gasoline but water is not miscible in gasoline. When you get a little water in the carb, gasoline with ethanol "should" absorb the water making it soluble again but it won't solubilize the rust and dissolved metal coatings left in the bowl. And that is what many of us are seeing when we tear our carbs apart. It increased dramatically with the advent of ethanol laced gasoline. Many would benefit as you say by cleaning out their tanks, changing their fuel filters on a regular basis and replacing aging fuel lines but ethanol in gasoline is not a carbureted engines friend.          

[Save Old Iron 1,571]

//

Overtime, this alcohol WILL draw moistures which will corrode the surface treatments of the exposed metal, later the actual metals of the bowl as well as the exposed metals of the needle valves and floats.

 

 

This is what I fear most - oxide particles plugging the carb passages more so than hydrocarbon or alcohol residues Oxide particles cannot be spray cleaned away with a shot of carb cleaner and may account for many of the "non - repairable" carbs we toss away. .We may all need a lesson on popping off the welch plugs on carbs to mechanically clean out oxides from the passageways.

 

Boo, the other question I have is when the ethanol absorbs water, does it actually change into a different compound or does the ethanol just hold onto the water? I guess my question is like asking if a sponge is no longer a sponge just because it now has absorbed water.

[Save Old Iron 1,571]

 

 

The red flakes immediately dissolved in the water!  Turned it bright cherry red.

 

The flakes did NOT dissolve in the K-1 to our surprise!

 

 

 

 

 

That is exactly the effect I'm looking for - the dye will remain on the bottom of the container until phase separation is forced and then the water / ethanol will become colored.

 

I actually want to force phase separation by adding controlled amounts of water to the gas and have the water / ethanol drop out of solution from the gasoline - and show a visual indication it happened.

[Save Old Iron 1,571]

SOI...I'll bounce this off our crack team of chemists, chemical engineers, alchemists, cold fusion gurus and sandwich artists at my workplace.

 

 

It is my deepest held belief - in the end - the sandwich artists will free us all from the shackles of bad gas.

[DoctorHfuhruhurr 137]

Here's a link to water finding paste that I think was mentioned above.  There's also a gasoline finding paste and a couple other pastes that work with Methanol and Ethanol.  I don't know if it will meet your needs.   http://www.petrochemsuppliesgs.com/paste.html

[meadowfield 2,754]

I think I missed the point of Chucks original post when I replied, but now it's derailed I will concur with Andys thoughts...

 

I remain skeptical to the downside of increased % of fuel additive whether it is ethanol or some other compound. On many occasions I have come to my 1956 2 stroke motorcycle after long lengths of time or a chainsaw and it simply won't start. Change the fuel and clean the plug all is good. That's my experience of 'hmmm modern fuel sucks'

 

On the other hand, I can get on any of my tractors - left for months without starting and providing the fuel gets to the carb (I have poor fuel pumps on two horses) they will start and run. My quad has been left at the back of my garage for 18 months - and I bet the only thing that stops it starting is a flat battery. Equally my strimmer and husky chainsaw started after being left in the shed all winter.

 

However, back to the reason for the thread - my brother left his C-105 in the shed all winter and it wouldn't start this april. The float bowl was full of water and there was water in the tank 

 

The other 5 tractors all started and worked fine, so I did get to thinking is it the hygroscopy of the ethanol causing this or just something else......

 

mark

[Save Old Iron 1,571]

 I was searching for ways to improve the life of gasoline, which 

now has about a 30 day life from the time it is produced.

 

 

 

Keith, in your time searching the subject, did you come across any specifics on why the gasoline would only have a 30 day claim to its lifespan. Did these folks make any specific claims why they would not use gasoline older than 30 days ?

 

Broad statements, totally devoid of any specifics, really get my gears grinding. Many of these statements could be true under certain circumstances. An open Jerry Can of gasoline left exposed to 85% or greater humidity for 30 days may in fact be an issue for drug smugglers in 1000 hp offshore racing boats shuttling between Cuba and Miami. You never know what someone's requirements are when they make these statements. I'm guessing my grandmothers 3 hp lawn edger may not have the same complaints.

[Save Old Iron 1,571]

I think I missed the point of Chucks original post when I replied, but now it's derailed I will concur with Andys thoughts...

 

 

No worries, I like wandering threads as I think we learn more from associating slightly different thoughts each to the other.

 

So the folks where I work that are "in the know" in the chemical world tell me there is an ionic bond formed between the ethanol and the water. A reversible bond that is broken as ethanol can evaporate from its association with water leaving just water behind.

 

E blend gas goes into the carb - engine shuts off - gasoline evaporates along with the ethanol and leaves water behind. That;s how water gets in the carb, But then, if more E blend gas hits the water residue in the carb, the new E blend should absorb the water left behind and this mixture then should be consumed in the first few minutes of the engine running. The same story should replay for any water in the gas tank.

 

If you speak of a full carb of water, or significant water accumulation in the gas tank, you must either be speaking of a tractor or accessory that only receives very brief use and left unused for long periods of time or

 

already phase separated gas (already compromised by poor storage) could be poured into a clean system and then the fuel pump happily pumps the gas / water mixture from the tank into the carb and there you have it.

 

This is a scenario that could easily be duplicated with good ole non E blend gas that has water introduced into the storage can. Again, it doesn't require new "bad gas" to create this scenario. In fact, introduction of good E blended gas can absorb small amounts of residual water in a system and allow the water to be consumed with the next tank of fuel used.

 

Dare I say Horray for E blend ?

 

And then I'm sure some of us remember buying cans of dry gas to intentionally put into our pre Y2K vehicle to absorb any water in the gas tank  As I recall this was done to prevent fuel related issues. .

[meadowfield 2,754]

 

I think I missed the point of Chucks original post when I replied, but now it's derailed I will concur with Andys thoughts...

 

 

 

 

didn't miss the irony of this though