MalMac 1,332 #1 Posted April 10, 2013 Just rebuilt a K321, now it's time to put some oil in it. In the past I have always used a Detergent oil and have not really had any problems with ring seating. The last Kohler I rebuilt I use the same oil but could not get the rings to seat to my satisfaction. With oil changing to more modern times I wonder if the chemical make up of the oil I have always used (conventional oil) has changed. Wonder If I should switch to a Non-Detergent oil for break in. Has anybody tried Non-Detergent for break in? I have found some possible other option out there but was curious about the Non-Detergent. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmaynard 16,363 #2 Posted April 11, 2013 I use non-detergent in all my Kohlers. Don't know if it will help with the rings, but if you are using chrome rings, it will take longer for them to seat. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JC 1965 1,532 #3 Posted April 11, 2013 I use non-detergent in all my Kohlers. Don't know if it will help with the rings, but if you are using chrome rings, it will take longer for them to seat. Bob, Do you use non detergent oil all the time in your Kohlers or just for break in period ? I thought non detergent oil was just for break in. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leeave96 490 #4 Posted April 11, 2013 I believe Kohler recommends non-detergent oil in all their single cylinder engines. The only explanation I've heard was that since the engines don't have an oil filter, there is nothing to catch the particles that would otherwise be suspended in detergent oil. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmaynard 16,363 #5 Posted April 11, 2013 I use it all the time. I have read several articles referring to the same info as stated above. If using a filter, use detergent, and no filter use non-detergent. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MalMac 1,332 #6 Posted April 11, 2013 Through all the reading I have been doing on this, I am finding out the same thing. If no filter use Non-Detergent. So today I put a Non-Detergent oil in for break in. I guess I will decide after it has a chance to seat. In the Kohler repair manual it does not say anything about ND oil. I think this might just be a wide open subject. You can read your self too death on it. Several different answers. Would like to see what the people from Kohler have to say. They will probably say "Why you messing around with that old Technology, buy one of are newer tech models". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leeave96 490 #7 Posted April 11, 2013 Another thing I have heard is that all synthetic oils are detergent, that might be a consideration too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wheeledhorseman 579 #8 Posted April 11, 2013 I've never really given any thought as to which oil is better for 'break in' (we call it 'running in' in the UK) though it's a thing of the past with modern automobile engines. However, heres my take on the detergent / non-detergent issue post-rebuild. The original non-detergent oils allows carbon deposits from an enevitable bit of combustion gas getting past the rings to settle out as sludge in the oil pan. The amount of sludge that forms there depends on how frequently you change the oil and how worn the engine's getting. Detergent oils are designed to take the carbon and hold it suspended in the oil rather than letting it form a sludge in the pan. The detergent also greatly reduces carbon build up on surfaces inside the crank case. So here's the big no - no. Never change over to detergent oil in an old engine, (or use a flushing oil) as detergent in the oil will do it's best to remove the sludge in the oil pan, become black very quikly and there's a high risk that some tiny oilways will get blocked causing engine failure. If an engine has been rebuilt and starts clean inside then I can't see a reason why detergent oil should not be used with or without an oil filter. As long as the oil is changed regularly and before it starts going black on the dip stick regardless of hours then it should be fine and will keep the engine clean inside. Detergent oils were I believe introduced partly to overcome the fact that filters do not effectively deal with the carbon particles. Back in the 60s & 70s my father always used 20-50 multiweight detergent oil in his mowers from new and the engines never failed. That's my take on it but feel free to put a different case. Andy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MalMac 1,332 #9 Posted April 11, 2013 Well the whole reason for the ND oil VS. Detergent oil is because the last Kohler I did was having trouble getting the rings to seat. They are changing modern oils so much to try and keep up with the ever changing automobile engine. I was wondering if the chem make up of the oil that I had been using had changed and no notification was given to the consumer. The oil company's I guess do not have any real obligation to notify us when they change things but it would be nice. I know for example that Rottila no longer endorses using their 30wt in gasoline motors. It use to say it on the bottle now it does not. If you contact them they will tell you that they changed it and there for they can no longer say it could be used in gasoline motors. You probably can but with them taking off the bottle and saying they no longer endorse it, that relieves them of any responsibility if a failure would occur. I am going to use the Non-Detergent just to break it in then I am not sure. Probably just go back to what I have always use. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anglo Traction 761 #10 Posted April 12, 2013 Forgive me if I'm missing something here Gents (and any Ladies). I've always complied with the Kohler K series Manual's statement (page 6) that a High quality detergent based 30 wt Oil to spec SF/SG should be used. It also states that any other Oil blend may cause premature wear or damage !. Being one of the sort that tends to comply with instructions like this, and am also currently 'Breaking In' a Rebuilt k301 with Chrome edged Oil Control rings, are you guys saying that it doesn't matter if it's Mineral/Non Detergent/synthetic based?. Also, what Oil type/ingredient (or the absence of) assists in 'Bedding the Rings In' ?. I have yet to establish if the rings are seating ok (1 hours run time), because my old Fuel Pump decided to mix Gas with the Oil and vice versa. Having just rebuilt the Pump and drained the Oil, I'm close to the point where I'm ready to put fresh Oil in it, so is there a concensus here that recommends a specific 'Breaking In' and/or 'Running Oil' (bearing in mind in in UK) ?. I'm happy to consider changing my principles based on Long Term experienced users. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MalMac 1,332 #11 Posted April 12, 2013 Anglo Traction I have always used Detergent oil even when breaking in a new motor. Like I stated earlier the last one I had a lot of problems getting the rings to seat right. I know that the oil Manufactures are always changing their oil make up to try and keep up with the demands of today's newer engines. Now if that is what happened to me on the last rebuild I do no know. I thought this time I would try something different. I know that Non-Detergent without all the anti-friction additives in will provide the necessary friction to help seat the rings at least that's is what I have read. Like stated before I am only using it to get the rings seated. There could have been other contributing factors as to why the rings did not seat right. I am just going with the most obvious to me and my knowledge base. Maybe some other members on here will chime in with a whole lot more knowledge than I and shine some light on the subject. I know Amsoil is good stuff and offer a special break in oil. You can go back and read about Amsoil that has been used in Motor sports, Industry and Agriculture plus the Trucking Industry. You don't even need to go to their web site. There are a lot of testimonies out there and it is quite impressive through the many years. I am not sure I will use it yet but it was very informative reading. I Aim sure there are a lot of other options out there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buckshot 1 15 #12 Posted April 12, 2013 I break my engines in with the oil I am going to use. On my K321, I use HD30 mixed with MMO, I also installed a magnetic drain plug, I change oil according to hrs on the hour meter. I also had a long time small engine man tell me to break a engine in like you was going to run it, warm it up and then full bore, anyone have any thoughs on that? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MalMac 1,332 #13 Posted April 12, 2013 I have heard that and seen it. Where I use to work at driving big trucks we had what I would call one of the best Diesel mechanics in the country. When he got done with a repair or complete overhaul it was right or better than it came from the factory. He would do a total rebuild then fire it up and get on it. Once it was warmed up, then the rpm's came up just like it was going to be used. He would say "If it going to blow up or fail it will do it now" and darn if he was not right. Drivers would fight to have one of his motors. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 617 #14 Posted April 12, 2013 From the Kohler website: "To allow the piston rings to seat properly, Kohler recommends operating a new or rebuilt engine for at least 50 hours on standard oil before switching to the synthetic oil." http://www.kohlerengines.com/maintenance/faqs.htm Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 617 #15 Posted April 12, 2013 Break-in according to John Deere: "High-quality premium engine oils should not be used as a break-in oil." http://www.frontierpower.com/service/breakinoil.htm Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anglo Traction 761 #16 Posted April 12, 2013 Hi Malmac, I understood all you have said in your posts and agree with all those who stick with Detergent based Oils on Aircooled, non Filtered Engines. I have done some more searching, trying to avoid the 'Promotional Self Praising' of Oil products. There are specific 30wt Oils available (UK) for Breaking In (Running In) Aircooled Engines and concur with Malmac's principles of eliminating Anti friction additives. They retain the Heat Transferance and anti corrosion properties, but prevent Cylinder wall Glazing caused by the Anti Friction Additives. The only thing I could not find , was how long to use it for, and as it is available in 5ltr cans (not cheap), I wouldn't use it all. I think for my purposes, I also will continue with the correct oil, as the worst of the roughness from Honing has already smoothed off (fairly coarse at the correct 30 deg angle). If it means burning a tiny amount of Oil for a few more hours at max revs and a further Oil change, so be it. I'm using 30wt API SJ/CC and covers all previous versions, except SA. Regards Share this post Link to post Share on other sites