D-180 troubleshooting

[qball16 0]

Hi,

Finally got a chance to look at the D-180 for a few minutes. I bought it in a non-running condition. The day i bought it, I was able to get the motor to turn over with the starter but couldn't get it to start. Here is what happened today. I hope some of you can shed some light on the situation. First of all, it seems that the starter is now spinning but not turning the motor over. I don't know if the gears have shifted or if something is stripped because I didn't pull the tractor out of its little hole in the garage. I think the starter not turning the motor over could have something to do with the cold and one other thing. It seems that the PTO clutch is in a constant state of engagement. I moved the linkage through the positions but the pulley and belt remain connected to the engine. This was helpful for one reason. I was able to turn the motor over by hand. I could feel the strokes and felt compression, not that I could tell how much compression or anything. I had a spark tester connected from when I went to start it in the first place and it sparked during hand turning. Then I put it on the other side and got a spark there, too. I couldn't even find my spark plug wrench so I wasn't able to test compression. I'm not sure if you can really test compression by hand cranking anyway. Can you?

So, What did I learn? no, seriously, I'm asking. In what position on the PTO clutch mechanism is it supposed to be disengaged? It kind of goes between 1 and 2 o'clock if you're standing in front of the tractor. Should I take the belt off so the starter isn't trying to spin the PTO while starting? Any theories on the starter? Do you think it's stripped? I didn't hear a thud or loud noise or anything. What does spark while hand cranking mean? Should this mean that the ignition system is good?

So, first time out and I have more questions than answers. The good: the motor isn't frozen and there is spark. The bad: Starter not turning motor over and PTO is stuck in the engaged position. Any insight would be great. What should my next step be?

Thanks,

Scott

[qball16 0]

A little more info:

Yes, I'm a novice

Kohler 18hp twin K482s

Previous owner claims the motor was running a year ago

[otrelwood 32]

my pto turn when not engaged also but i can stop it, its not stuck. if the tractor has been sitting a while the face of the disc can stick to the pressure faces to make it stay engaged .that would probably free up when the engine gets started the starter drive is probably bad so yoiu need to take the starter off to replace it e careful when removing the starter as they have a tendicy to corode in the hole they are in and breaking the casting when persuaded to come out pulled back towards the seat is the disengage position for the pto

[wheeledhorseman 579]

Hi Scott, welcome to the forum and of course to the mysterious world of the D series.

I have a D-200 but as the starter works on mine I left well alone when restoring the tractor. I doubt you've stripped anything and as you hint that it could be temerature related my guess would be that the bendix gear isn't sliding on the helical splines. I'm sure someone will step in and correct me if I'm wrong but these are old school starters not the pre-engaged type. There's no solenoid to force the gear on the starter to mesh with the teeth on the flywheel it relies on inertia and if the helical splines are gummed up it will be reluctant to engage particularly in cold temperatures. As Otrelwood says, do take care withdrawing it if it's stuck to the casting.

The PTO is adjustable and even when working correctly mine will spin the pulley - partly because the pto brake is missing. However, if you can turn the engine over using the pulley when the clutch is supposed to be disengaged then somethings way out of adjustment or wrong. I had a similar issue, in my case a part had been lost from inside the pto pulley assembly. You may have to remove the pto to check it all through. My concern is that its very important that it is all adjusted and operating correctly as the arms that move the pulley forward to disengage the drive actually pivot on a hook that's mounted on a lug on the motor end plate. Put too much strain on this and the lug will start to part company with the rest of the casting. My tractor came to me like that, oh and all the pto parts were in a sack having been removed. Deep joy!

Hope this helps a bit. I'm no expert but I'll start to follow the thread.

Andy

[qball16 0]

Otrelwood,

Thanks for the reply. So the starter drive is designed to break before the starter or flywheel, is this correct? Are they a fairly standard part or is it specific to this engine/starter? Like I said, I'm a novice. I think the PTO clutch is pretty stuck because I could turn the engine over with the belt in both positions. I'm sure some PB Blaster could help. Any reason not to use a penetrating oil on the clutch?

Thanks again,

Scott

[qball16 0]

Andy,

I have a feeling that "deep joy" will be a common emotion in the next few months. I'll finally get the motor running and then I'll be compelled to throw all kinds of money at every other little issue. But if I can get it going, it's going to be sweet. Do you have any input about the spark when hand turning the engine? Also, would the extra drag of the PTO being engaged keep the starter from starting the motor? Like maybe it doesn't crank fast enough.

Thanks,

Scott

[wheeledhorseman 579]

Re the pto - try loosening the bolt in the centre of the pulley that holds it onto the crankshaft. You should then be able to pull the pulley forward a bit on the crankshaft. Its the front pulley that has to move forward on the crankshaft to release the clutch. The clutch lining is gripped between the front pulley assembly and the rear assembly. There should be a spring clip inside the pulley that stops it short of gripping the clutch when the bolt is tightened. That's why my instinct says remove the pto for now as it's not going to be a whole lot of use til you get the tractor running.

If there's a spark there on both plug leads I'd leave well alone with the ignition for now.

You need to get the starter to engage with the flywheel rather than spinning but not engaging and that will mean taking it off to clean the bendix gear (my best guess).

You also need to check that fuel's getting to the carb. The impulse pumps on these can be dodgy particularly if it's been laid up for some time.

You can follow the resto of my D here

Other 'D' guys have threads about their restos on the forum as well. I'm sure they'll chip in and help also.

Andy

[pfrederi 18,708]

Do not put penetrating oil on the PTO

[qball16 0]

Thanks for the tip, I won't.

[qball16 0]

Andy,

You're batting 2 for 2. I don't know what the translation to cricket would be. First I loosened the PTO bolt and was able to separate the clutch plates. Then I tightened it back up and it still spins with the motor but if you put some pressure on the belt, it stays put. Good enough for now. It also looks like all the parts are there. Next I removed the starter and yes, it was buggered up with gunk. I PB blasted the hell out of it and it is now spinning freely. The problem is, the gear still spins when it gets to the top of the shaft. Is this normal? Is the centrifugal force of the starter enough to make this spin the flywheel? Here is a video of what I mean.

This spinning has been getting tighter and tighter as time passes, I wonder if I just lubed it up to much. Unfortunately, when I got out there today, the battery was completely drained so I have not re-attached the starter. I know it was charged when I hooked it up yesterday. What would cause the battery to get drained? So, another day the brings more questions than answers. Andy, I really appreciate the insight. I looked at your restoration thread for the D-200 and It looks I may have a similar path to yours in the near future. I'm also missing the PTO engagement handle. Are these hard to find. I attached some picks from the work today.

[Trouty56 567]

That bloody knuckle looks very familiar.....I bugger one or two each time I try and do something.....lol

[wheeledhorseman 579]

Hmm... looks to me like you may have found the issue but I can't be certain from the video. I've not disassembled one of these from a D but based on all of the starters I've come across on automobiles that work on this principle then when the gear reaches the end of the shaft it should lock on the shaft. Continuing to turn it by hand once it's run up the helical splines you should end up turning the whole starter motor shaft.

The gear should stay up at the end while you're turning the starter by it but run back along the splines when you let go - it's how it disengages when the engine fires up.

I could be misenterpreting the video - does the gear lock and end up with you turning the starter motor shaft? I think the video shows that it doesn't

Can anyone else with experince of dismantling one of these chip in here? Is there something inside the bendix that breaks?

Andy

[qball16 0]

Andy,

You see it correctly, it gets to the top of the shaft and then the gear spins on itself as two pieces, not spinning the motor shaft. I wonder if there was a weld that broke or if its just held in there by pressure when its made? Funny thing is, it keeps getting tighter since the video. I can't turn it by hand any more, only when I use a wrench on the bolt base. I was pretty liberal with the PB Blaster and I wonder if it just got in there and lubed up something that shouldn't be lubed? I'm going to try soaking the gear in a grease cutter of some sort and see what happens. I'm curious if this was a design feature, assuming it's much tighter, or a malfunction.

Scott

[coldone 35]

Here is the link to the kohler web site so you can get your engine manual. The starter has an overriding clutch built into the drive. I tried to get a pic of it but it was too large for here.

http://www.kohlerengines.com/manuals/landing.htm

[qball16 0]

Coldone,

I looked at the service manual from the link you sent. My starter looks like the replacement one in the second figure, without the clutched bendix gear. Mine is "clutched" at the moment, though.

thanks,

scott

[wheeledhorseman 579]

Here's the diag for each from the Kohler site but reduced to just what we need (click on the image to enlarge)

Yours looks to be the simple standard type even if it has gained a 'clutch' property for now.

I think the time has come to take it off the shaft for inspection.

Firstly, the helical splines are notoriously difficult to clean without doing so. They need to be clean and shiny, just a bit of surface rust will stop the correct operation. I generally use a soft (brass) wire brush. I was always taught to leave the surfaces 'dry' and not oil them or if they do need some lube where thery're worn or slightly damaged then use graphite powder. This is mainly due to the fact that if they're oiled on an automobile with manual gear shift then clutch dust inevitably sticks to the splines making the action sluggish. This doesn't apply here and a light oiling may help stop surface rust.

Secondly, i suspect all will be revealed. I'm suspicious of the fact that the nut formed on the end of the inner bendix moves separately from the outer case and gear. I don't think it should. Taking the thing apart may reveal torn welds. Can't say for sure without seeing but I suspect the answer will become apparent.

Hope this helps. Post some pics of what you find - the previous ones and video were very good btw.

Andy

[JamesBe1 84]

Welcome to the forum Scott. It seems that the experts here have already given you tons of good info. I can only add that I think that Andy is correct in that the gear on the end of the starter helix should not turn. At least not nearly as easily as you showed in the video.

When you try to start the engine, does the gear come out to the end of the bendix and engage the flywheel teeth and then stop with the starter still turning? I think that is what I gather from your explanation so far.

As for the PTO, the rod that runs from the handle to the clutch arm has an length adjustment about halfway down its length. That is what you should use to adjust the pto clutch. I am pretty sure that there is a spring inside the pto that pushes that plates away from each other when the pto is not engaged.

Myself and the rest of the folks here should be able to supply you with all the parts diagrams and manuals for both the engine and the tractor. If you can't find what you need on the net, feel free to ask and I will send you whatever I have (tons of stuff).

James

[qball16 0]

Thanks James and Andy. I did take the Bendix off and soaked it in some Purple Power solution. It's now squeaky clean and it's much harder to spin the two pieces. I can't see any evidence of a broken weld or anything between the parts. I suspect that it was held together by pressing the round collar around the nut part. I'm in Green Bay now for a few days working so we'll see how it feels on Wednesday night when I get home. I wonder if it won't firm up as the solvent dries. I already can't spin it by hand anymore. It's hard to say if this was the original problem. When I removed it, it was definately NOT travelling the shaft as it should. That and the cold wasn't helping. I think my PB Blasting loosened up the two bendix parts. Is this something an auto parts store would carry? Thaks for all the insight and willingness to help, much appreciated. I'm trying to figure out the best way to document this whole process.

Thanks again,

Scott

[Trouty56 567]

Scott....You could always buy a new one.......

http://www.dbelectrical.com/p-1921-starter-kohler-john-deere-18-23hp-k482-k532-k582-k-482-k-532-k-582.aspx

[coldone 35]

Ebay is your friend for these old tractors.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JOHN-DEERE-400-TRACTOR-KOHLER-K532-20-hp-ENGINE-STARTER-/350699920828?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51a7581dbc

Jack small engines has an aftermarket new one

http://www.jackssmallengines.com/Starter/Kohler/Small-Engines/SAB0042/s

[JamesBe1 84]

Scott,

I think you are correct in that the parts are pressed together, and the cleaner loosened them up. But I am no expert. I wonder now that they are loose will they return to their former state? Dunno, I guess you'll have something to teach us in that respects. We're all novices here too.

Britt brings up a great point in that ebay is a good source of parts. The 160, 180, & 200 are identical except for the horsepower difference and the onan ingine on the 160. There is often someone parting out an old tractor on ebay. I've gotten lots of parts there over the years.

Good luck and post some pics, we'd all love to see them.

[wheeledhorseman 579]

Slowly the knowledge base on these machines is growing so thanks for your contribution Scott. It's only when things go wrong that we learn and work out how to fix them. As James says, It will be interesting to see if there's enough grip between the two parts once the solvent has dried out to turn the engine over.

If not, then it would be easy to say that it's a poor design but I'm guessing there was a purpose, possibly to protect the rest of the starter motor should the bendix become reluctant to disengage from the flywheel. The fact that there was at some point a complex bendix available that included an overun clutch certainly tends to indicate there was some thinking behind the overall design. I suspect that if this is the case then the simple pressed design may only do this job a limted number of times but I could be wrong (as I often am) so I guess we'll all be interested in your news later in the week.

Andy

[Trouty56 567]

My thought is that the starter gear does not travel to the far most extension. There is a stop on the gear portion that prevents it from traveling past the flywheel when it extends. If I am correct then the starter gear will travel only as far as the flywheel allows and the shaft will engage the gear.

I hope..... I would lube the bendix shaft...install the starter....and give it a shot.

[qball16 0]

So, this is how slowly things move around here. I just now have time to give the starter a look. I'm bringing the starter to a shop this morning for a test and to see if they have a replacement drive gear. I can order the gear online for about $20 shipped but I figure I'll keep it local and have then starter tested so I know it's good. Also getting a new battery. I'll let you know what happens. Thanks for the help.

Scott

[qball16 0]

Just got back from the starter shop. $35 for the replacement drive and cleaning up the inside. Got another battery, too. Too bad it's about 15 degrees out there, that's °f, by the way.

Scott