Newbie

[Just Piddling 0]

Hello all, I have lurked here ever since I bought my 88' 520H last year. I joined a couple months ago, and have learned a lot already. I have a mechanical/ electrical back ground, but not with tractors. I have a snow blade which is useless in NC except to be used as a dozer. I have made a bucket out of the blade, with the idea of it being a top pivot clam shell dump. The more I play with it I have decided to weld it together to make a conventional bucket. I have cut it down to 12" depth to give me enough clearance to dump. I was going to use a linear actuator from Northern Tool, but they look cheap and I don't know if they can handle the load. If I used a cylinder identical to the one already on the tractor, is there enough oil volume to operate both cylinders and the hydro (tee into the supply and return lines on the valve to an electric directional valve), or will I have to create a separate hyd system? Thanks for the help.

[Just Piddling 0]

Have I asked a stupid question that is not worth reply, or have I been black balled already for admitting to have been a lurker while learning about WH?

[Kelly 1,029]

No your not black balled Just hyd. info is something not all of us know about, and don't want to give the wrong info. someone will post what you need.

[T-Mo-(Moderator) 4,494]

Actually this is the first I've seen this post. I'm with Kelly, as I know little about hydraulics. But I do know there are some members who do as I've seen some of their projects.

BTW, I've seen your name lurking in the background. I'm glad you have posted and would love to see more posts. AND, this bucket project, B)

[Rollerman 290]

"JP" first

I'm far from an hyd expert....but I do know the Wheel Horse C195 had a similiar hydro/pump that the 520's use & they had controls for rear & mid lifts on seperate lines.

I think it could be done.

Be patient...someone will come along that can answer your question with more clarity.

PS there are no stupid questions at Red Square...just some that have been covered a few times...but I don't beleive yours is one of them.

Also we don't "blackball" members either....we just send out a red towncar with some wiseguys..... B)

[Teddy da Bear 11]

we just send out a red towncar with some wiseguys..

So that explains the red towncar pacing back and forth outside my front gate.

I remember one rule for hydraulics. "Volume" You must adequate reservoir and adequate pump for however many devices your operating.

On my IH lo boy....the mid and rear hydraulics are on the same line with a diverter valve. You can operate either one.....but not at the same time.

[combatmp29r 27]

OK with out pulling out al the hydraulics manuals (still not sure what box they are in ), I can't tell you if the pump will push enough volume and pressure to do what you want. In my experience though it should. Now as far as Teeing off the line, in short NO IT WONT WORK. with that said you need to find a 2 spool valve like the D-200s had. If you tee off a line you cut your pressure substantially and won't be able to run both valves at once. I was trying to find Stephen's electro mutt post to give you an idea of what the valves will look like. By golly we havwe gotten big after 4 pages of searching I decided I'll let him find his post

Now hopefully Jim (Mith) will jump in here as i know since he just built a loader and backhoe in the last couple years he won't have to go dig out any manuals to give you all the details.

I hope this has helped some and isn't just a big pile of mush

Also and sorry about the long winded reply :whistle:

[Rollerman 290]

was trying to find Stephen's electro mutt post to give you an idea of what the valves will look like

Didn't think of that Joel.

"JP"...here you go...a 2 spool valve like used on the D series & the C195's to controll two hyd cylinders.

[combatmp29r 27]

Yep thats what I was looking for Stephen thanks Bud B)

[Just Piddling 0]

Thank you for the responces. I understand about dividing the amount of flow if I use both valves at once, but wouldn't this be the same as if I had an open center dual valve. Correct me if I'm wrong, but pressure is the resistance to flow. So the pressure will not drop because of the 2 cylinders, just the volume. I guess my main question is there enough oil in the reservoir to accomodate 2 cylinders and the hydro? Thanks again for the help, and I am not doubting your responces, it's just I am a trainer for a fork lift dealer and have a little hyd knowledge. BTW, this is a great site B)

[combatmp29r 27]

Just Piddling, Your pressure definition is right, but the two spool versus a Tee is not the same. I know that it sounds like it should work the same, but it doesn't. They make special diverters to do what you want, same as a tee, but it controls the amount of flow sent to either side. Basically the second valve will never get quite enough flow to operate right. I'll look around to see if I can find a good book explanation of this for you. I'm not trying in anyway to say you don't have a clue, but I learned the whole diverter, power beyond deal as a teenager on the farm the hard way. Dada beat knots on my head with a wrench as we tore apart what I put togethor because I added a Tee since we didn't have any flow divereters in the shop and I was too lazy to go buy one As far as the volume being there it should be. I think WH only put remotes on the Ds, but JD had remote hyds on alot of their 140s and they where set up alot like your WH.

[Just Piddling 0]

Your right, an open center valve would circulate all the fluid back to tank instead of to the aux valve. On the other hand if the original valve is a closed center, it would have full flow at the aux. I could not operate both cylinders at the same time, but they could both co-exist on the truck, operated independently. Do you know if the WH valves are open or closed center, to save me from disconnecting hoses to find out? I really don't want to modify any sheet metal as the tractor is in great shape. That is why I was thinking of an solinoid directional valve with a 3 position momentary switch mounted on the lift lever. Thanks B)

[combatmp29r 27]

I'm not sure on your particular horse, but it should be an open center valve. Since the pump is always pumping and isn't an on demand type setup like a closed center would require.

[kpinnc 11,795]

JP,

I think I understand where you're going with all of this, and the short answer is yes, the single hydraulic pump will operate another cylinder with no problems.

Your 520 uses an Eaton 1100 with a charge pump mounted coaxially on the imput shaft of the actual hydro. The "resivior" is the transaxle itself in your case, so fluid volume won't be an issue.

Also, if you use another cylinder identical to what is on your tractor, it is a dual acting cylinder. Whatever fluid you pump into one side is replaced by what is forced out of the other side of the cylinder. Volume in the resivoir changes very little.

I added a D series cylinder to my Bronco, and just like Stephen and Joel are talking about, a twin spool valve from a D to operate both cylinders at the same time, or individually. It works just fine.

Good luck, and

Kevin

[wh500special 2,156]

The WH valves are open center.

While I think the most elegant solution would be to use a 2-spool valve from the D-series, you could hook a second valve in SERIES with the first to give you two separate hydraulic circuits. WH actually did this on the GT14 for the optional 3pt hitch with independent lift. (heck, you could hook a double spool valve in series too which would give you the equivalent of a JD 140 H3).

Simply daisy chain two valves together...Take the "return" hose from the first valve, disconnect it at the transmission, and connect it to the "input" side of the second valve. Then, of course, connect the return from valve #2 to the transmission port.

The dual spool, open centered valves do exactly the same thing except all the connections are discretely hidden inside the castings.

You should probably stick with the minature valves used by WH since anything larger starts to get bulky on such a small peice of equipment. Ideally both your valves would be identical. There is always something on Ebay if you can't source anything locally.

If you actuate both valves at the same time and have both cylinders loaded you might experience preferential flow in the first circuit, but once that cylinder has fully stroked all the flow will self divert to the second.

As far as volume of the reservoir (transaxle) is concerned you will have no problems as long as you stick to small, double-acting cylinders like used on the hyd lift circuit. The oil level in the transaxle wil be a little higher when both cylinders are retracted than when both are extended, but the small rod diameters on these cylinders make the volume difference between both sides of the piston minimal.

Anothercaveat would be that the hydro system in these things really was intended to be a sealed system. While a filter is used on the oil that returns from the transmission to the transaxle sump, it is not strategically located to deal with much schmutz that might be introduced from frequent coupling/uncoupling of hydraulic connectors. AND, the wear surfaces inside the hydro are pretty finicky about CLEAN oil.

So, the moral of that story is to keep things clean and if you do use couplers take special care not to introduce any foreign debris into the system and watch who you let borrow the tractor (i.e. keep it away from guys like me).

These hydro hydraulic systems really weren't optimized to provide "big tractor" hydraulic capability. I think pressure maxes out around 700 psi in the lift circuit and the flow rates have got to be pretty low...guessing on the order of 2 gpm but I've never seen a published value for this. Consequently, stay small when you spec out your components. (D-cylinders are significantly larger diameter that C-series stuff, so if you need more grunt look there).

Steve

Steve

[Just Piddling 0]

Thanks for all the great responses. Just as the name implies, I am always trying to redisign the wheel (horse). Again ya'll are a great pool of knowledge. That is the reason I waited a while to post. I wanted to get caught up on some of the WH mechanics before sounding too dumb . I plan to keep posting, and yes take pictures. Thanks again. :whistle:

[rustbucket 4]

so for me and my GT-14 since i plan on feeding my rear hydro lift 3 point hitch off the deck lift system threw another valve i should add a diverter and not a tee fitting to supply the fluid to the second system?? running two fully seperate systems but for thir feed and return from the pump. enter and exit pump frm same feed and return ports.?????