Synthetic oil in older Kohler Engines

[oiluj 0]

Has anyone used 5w-30 synthetic oil in older Kohler (1981) engines? I have a c145 work tractor that I want to use this winter for snow removal. Our winter temperatures very from 0 to 50 and I thought the synthetic oil would be a good choice. Good or Bad idea?

I have used the oil in my new engines with good results. I am not sure what will happen in one of the old K321 one lungers.

[Jim_M 178]

Valvoline makes a full synthetic 10W30 Racing oil that has the anti wear additives for flat tappet cams. I use it in my pulling tractor and I'm very happy with it.

[oiluj 0]

Thanks, I'll chek it out!

[rmaynard 14,922]

:thumbs2:

I use Mobil 1 in my cars and trucks, but not in the tractors.

Here is why. Mobil 1 states on their website that full synthetic oil can be used in older engine that were previously using conventional oil, however if there are any leaks, synthetic will make them worse. Since I only have one tractor with a completely rebuilt engine (new seals and gaskets), I don't want to run the risk of leaks with 40 year old seals.

Therefore, I only use straight 30W, non-detergent oil in my Kohlers. However, the rebuilt engine is currently still in it's break-in period, and as soon as it gets drained, I may be trying synthetic in that one.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[HorseFixer 2,012]

I use Mobil 1 in my cars and trucks, but not in the tractors.

Here is why. Mobil 1 states on their website that full synthetic oil can be used in older engine that were previously using conventional oil, however if there are any leaks, synthetic will make them worse. Since I only have one tractor with a completely rebuilt engine (new seals and gaskets), I don't want to run the risk of leaks with 40 year old seals.

Therefore, I only use straight 30W, non-detergent oil in my Kohlers.

[Giles 2]

Personally, I would never switch oil types. Synthetic and petroleum oils have different "oil seal swell" properties and doing so can increase your chance for oil leaks.

HOWEVER--I recently had to do this and really don't know the effects yet.

I bought a Gravely G16 that has 320 hours. Seller stated he had never used anything but Mobil One 30W Full Synthetic.

When I bought it, I thought--no problem--but I was wrong!

Now where could I find Full Synthetic motor oil, of any brand, that was 30W!!

I decided to use 15W30 full synthetic. Bad decision---the motor started blowing oil from the crankcase breather tube, into tha air cleaner housing.

After about 6 hours of operating and cleaning oil from the air cleaner assembly and adding oil, I decided to use Chevron Dello 400 30W--same as I have used in all my equipment for years.

That has been app. 40 hours ago and NO PROBLEMS.

I might add that, to the best of my memory, Kohler recommends to use a multi grade oil in temperatures Below 40 degrees and a 30W above 40 degrees.

No mention of Synthetic!

It should be noted that this is an old Lawn Tractor!

I also operate a 1982 Wheel Horse C175 that I bought in 1983 and after app. 2,000 hours, it will use a small amount of oil between changes--used Chevron Dello 400 30W for nearly 30 years.

[dgoyette 12]

I switched to Amsoil Small Engine SAE 30/10-30 in my Magnum and K series about 2 years ago and no leaks. I chose this because I often do not but enough hours on each tractor to warrant an oil change for the season change. With this oil I do not have to change from summer to winter. And no I have not seen any noticeable oil consumption. Dipstick looks clean and full.

I would say that I considered my engines to be in healthy condition. I wasn't sure about a K341 on my 1975 C-160 but decided to go for it, and very happy I did. Results may vary :thumbs2:

[HorseFixer 2,012]

I switched to Amsoil Small Engine SAE 30/10-30 in my Magnum and K series about 2 years ago and no leaks.

Personally, I would never switch oil types. Synthetic and petroleum oils have different "oil swell" properties and doing so can increase your chance for oil leaks.

And just about the time you think you have heard everything. Giles please direct me to the "OIL SWELL" article and tests you are talking about, and how it increases a chance of oil leaks.

Cheers ~Duke

:D

[Giles 2]

I didn't say it would increase the chance--I said doing so can increase your chance for oil leaks.

Over the years, I have done extensive research on this subject and the only creditable information was from independent test.

I did this several years ago and today's synthetic oils have been improved concerning "oil seal swell".

There is still a lot of conflicting information, so I came to the conclusion that today's seals are superior as opposed to older seals and gaskets.

I, personally do not need synthetic oil because of the use my equipment sees and the climate that I am in.

Operating in extreme Hot--Cold--Dusty--or a lot of short operating cycles can suggest using Synthetic Oil.

Just remember, with this post the OP has a 1981 model.

Were it a new or a few years old--talk would be different.

Change with the time--but be cautious :thumbs:

[HorseFixer 2,012]

I did this several years ago and today's synthetic oils have been improved concerning "oil swell".

I am still trying to find this term "OIL SWELL" what it means and what the ramifications are. Is this a Term use by ASME or SAE? All I am wanting to do is to read about this scientific term that you are reffering to.

~Duke

[Giles 2]

Oops --my mistake and ignorance for not paying attention to what these 66 year old hands are trying to type!!!!

It should have been SEAL SWELL!!I would suggest that you do a google search for "synthetic Oil seal swell"

I think you will find what you are searching for.

Thanks for catching my mistake and please accept my apology for the confusion.

I will try to correct my posts??

[HorseFixer 2,012]

Not a problem Giles, I did do a search on the words you reccomended but didn't find anything with the exact words "synthetic Oil seal swell." The search engines came up with individual meanings of those words, What I did find from several manufactures of Oil Or refinerys is that alot of Oils donot have the proper additive Pakage to prevent Seals from getting hard, brittle and caused to leak. Like I didnt know that allready! The proper package of additives should keep the seals clean soft and provide them to swell slightly to provide the right seal. Many times when switching to Synthetics after the engine gets cleaned by running synthetics The synthetic oil additives will soften the seals (if they are not too far gone or damaged).

Here is a pretty good article that I found from your search words. Its the 4th one down on the page useing Google.

Cheers ~Duke

Ten Myths About Synthetic Lubrication

First Published in National Oil and Lube News by Ed Newman

It's a fact of life that behavior is strongly influenced by what people believe, whether true or not. Numerous examples from history bear this out. For example, sailors were once fearful of sailing outside the sight of land less they would fall off the edge of the world. In the early 19th century, the train was considered dangerous because it was believed that if you traveled faster than 25 miles per hour, you would be traveling too fast to breathe. At a later date, the New York Times warned that electric light may cause blindness. Microwave ovens, automobiles and airplanes have had equally vociferous opponents.

Looking back, it is easy to laugh at some of these things people so firmly believed. But these people were not stupid. They were simply misinformed. In many instances they had simply drawn conclusions before all the facts were in. How easy it is to make the same mistake today. In our own time, synthetic motor oils have been the object of many misconceptions held by the general public. Many people, including some mechanics who ought to know better, have been misled by persistent myths that need to be addressed.

PARAMETERS OF THE DEBATE

Synthetic lubricants are fuel efficient, extended life lubricants manufactured from select basestocks and special purpose additives. In contrast to petroleum oils which are pumped from the earth and refined, synthetics are custom-designed in the laboratory, with each phase of their molecular construction programmed to produce, in effect, the ideal lubricant.

In responding to objections most commonly raised against synthetics it is important to establish the parameters of the debate. When speaking of synthetic motor oils, this article is defending the synthetic lubricants which have been formulated to meet the performance standards set by the American Petroleum Institute (API). (The first such synthetic motor oil to meet these industry-accepted tests for defining engine oil properties and performance characteristics was AMSOIL 100% Synthetic 10W-40 in 1972.)

Many people with questions about synthetics haven't known where to turn to get correct information. Is it super oil or snake oil? Some enthusiasts will swear that synthetics are capable of raising your specialty car from the dead. On the other hand, the next fellow asserts that synthetics will send your beloved car to an early grave. Where's the truth in all this?

In an effort to set the record straight, we've assembled ten of the more persistent myths about synthetic motor oils to see how they stack up against the facts.

Myth #1: Synthetic motor oils damage seals.

Untrue. It would be foolhardy for lubricant manufacturers to build a product that is incompatible with seals. The composition of seals presents problems that both petroleum oils and synthetics must overcome. Made from elastomers, seals are inherently difficult to standardize.

Ultimately it is the additive mix in the oil that counts. Additives to control seal swell, shrinkage and hardening are required, whether it be a synthetic or petroleum product that is being produced.

Myth #2: Synthetics are too thin to stay in the engine.

Untrue. In order for a lubricant to be classified in any SAE grade (10W-30, 10W-40, etc) it has to meet certain guidelines with regard to viscosity ("thickness").

For example, it makes no difference whether it is 10W-40 petroleum or 10W-40 synthetic, at -25 degrees centigrade (-13F) and 100 degrees centigrade (212 degrees F) that oil has to maintain a standardized viscosity or it can't be rated a 10W-40.

Myth #3: Synthetics cause cars to use more oil.

Untrue. Synthetic motor oils are intended to use in mechanically sound engines, that is, engines that don't leak. In such engines oil consumption will actually be reduced. First, because of the lower volatility of synlubes. Second, because of the better sealing characteristics between piston rings and cylinder walls. And finally, because of the superior oxidation stability (i.e. resistance of synthetics against reacting with oxygen at high temperatures.)

Myth #4: Synthetic lubricants are not compatible with petroleum.

Untrue. The synthesized hydrocarbons, polyalphaolefins, diesters and other materials that form the base stocks of high quality name brand synthetics are fully compatible with petroleum oils. In the old days, some companies used untested ingredients that were not compatible, causing quality synlubes to suffer a bum rap. Fortunately, those days are long gone.

Compatibility is something to keep in mind, however, whether using petroleum oils or synthetics. It is usually best to use the same oil for topping off that you have been running in the engine. That is, it is preferable to not mix your oils, even if it is Valvoline or Quaker State you are using. The reason is this: the functions of additives blended for specific characteristics can be offset when oils with different additive packages are put together. For optimal performance, it is better to use the same oil throughout.

Myth#5: Synthetic lubricants are not readily available.

Untrue. This may have been the case two decades ago when AMSOIL and Mobil1 were the only real choices, but today nearly every major oil company has added a synthetic product to their lines. This in itself is a testament to the value synthetics offer. But, beware, many of the other "syntheitcs" are not true PAO (Polyalphaolefin) syntheitcs (ie: Castrol Syntec, Penzoil, etc...) they are hydroisomerized petroleum oil or an ester based synthetic blend.

Myth #6: Synthetic lubricants produce sludge

Untrue. In point of fact, synthetic motor oils are more sludge resistant than their petroleum counterparts, resisting the effects of high temperatures and oxidation. In the presence of high temperatures, two things happen. First, an oil's lighter ingredients boil off, making the oil thicker. Second, many of the complex chemicals found naturally in petroleum basestocks begin to react with each other, forming sludges, gums and varnishes. One result is a loss of fluidity at low temperatures, slowing the timely flow of oil to the engine for vital engine protection. Further negative effects of thickened oil include the restriction of oil flow to critical areas, greater wear and loss of fuel economy.

Because of their higher flash points, and their ability to withstand evaporation loss and oxidation, synthetics are much more resistant to sludge development.

Two other causes of sludge - ingested dirt and water dilution - can be a problem in any kind of oil, whether petroleum or synthetic. These are problems with the air filtration system and the cooling system resoectively, not the oil.

Myth #7: Synthetics can't be used with catalytic converters or oxygen sensors.

Untrue. There is no difference between synthetic and petroleum oils in regards to these components. Both synthetic and petroleum oils are similar compounds and neither is damaging to catalytic converters or oxygen sensors.

Myth #8: Synthetics void warranties.

Untrue. No major manufacturer of automobiles specifically bans the use of synthetic lubricants. In point of fact, increasing numbers of high performance cars are arriving on the showroom floors with synthetic motor oils as factory fill.

New vehicle warranties are based upon the use of oils meeting specific API Service Classifications (for example SG/CE). Synthetic lubricants which meet current API Service requirements are perfectly suited for use in any vehicle without affecting the validity of the new car warranty. In point of fact, in the over 25 years that AMSOIL Synthetic Lubricants have been used in extended service situations, over billions of miles of actual driving, these oils have not been faulted once for voiding an automaker's warranty.

Myth #9: Synthetics last forever.

Untrue. Although some experts feel that synthetic basestocks themselves can be used forever, it is well known that eventually the additives will falter and cause the oil to require changing. Moisture, fuel dilution and acids (the by-products of combustion) tend to use up additives in an oil, allowing degradation to occur.

However , by "topping off", additives can be replenished. Through good filtration and periodic oil analysis, synthetic motor oils protect an engine for lengths of time far beyond the capability of non-synthetics.

Myth #10: Synthetics are too expensive.

Untrue. Tests and experience have proven that synthetics can greatly extend drain intervals, provide better fuel economy, reduce engine wear and enable vehicles to operate with greater reliability. All these elements combine to make synthetic engine oils more economical that conventional non-synthetics.

In Europe, synthetics have enjoyed increasing acceptance as car buyers look first to performance and long term value rather than initial price. As more sophisticated technology places greater demands on today's motor oils, we will no doubt see an increasing re-evaluation of oil buying habits in this country as well.

CONCLUSIONS

Since their inception, manufacturers of synthetic motor oils have sought to educate the public about the facts regarding synthetics, and the need for consumers to make their lubrication purchasing decisions based on quality rather than price. As was the case with microwave ovens or electric lights, a highly technological improvement must often overcome a fair amount of public skepticism and consumer inertia before it is embraced by the general population.

But the word is getting out as a growing number of motorists worldwide experience the benefits of synthetic lubrication. The wave of the future, in auto lubes, is well under way.

[Giles 2]

Yes, I read that some time back, but doesn't it sound like an AMSOIL commercial? After all, it is within an Amsoil web site.

I am skeptical of most anything I read but this is Interesting reading!

I guess I am getting stubbern, at my age, but as I stated, a few years ago, I read several articles not recommending the change to different type oils and to never mix brands, especially considering oils of different weights.

Some recommended not to mix different brands of motor oil, even if it is the same type oil--synthetic or petroleum!!

I might add that I am a Tool&Die Maker by trade but retired. I was also an ASE Certified Auto Mechanic a few years back.

But one thing is for sure--I am not to stubbern to learn and maybe I have learned something today or, at least, rekindled an interest!---THANKS----

[HorseFixer 2,012]

Amsoil has told the truth since day one. I remember years ago when all of the BIG oil names claimed Synthetics would ruin your engine and do most of the things that was in that article. Now those same LIARS <_< are selling the same type of oil they lobbied against. They all are a bunch of Johnny come latelys in the Synthetic Oil Buisness When Amsoil was the first one in 1971 that brought it to the Auto Industry and.

~Duke yep and its blended in the USA not pumped out of the ground in BFE. :thumbs2:

[546cowboy 301]

All I can say is some of you have way too much time on your hands. I have been using regular 30W oil in small engines for as long as I can remember and never had a problem. I was a GM Tech for 20+ years so I have seen the times change and the pro's and con's argued over and over.

It is getting harder to find straight weight oil though, even at WalMart they only have a few quarts most of the time. Another thing is the price of oil anymore and synthetic is about $6 a quart. I can hear you now, but I do have about 20 tractors at the present time and that adds up quick. 6X20=$120

[dgoyette 12]

All I can say is some of you have way too much time on your hands. I have been using regular 30W oil in small engines for as long as I can remember and never had a problem. I was a GM Tech for 20+ years so I have seen the times change and the pro's and con's argued over and over.

It is getting harder to find straight weight oil though, even at WalMart they only have a few quarts most of the time. Another thing is the price of oil anymore and synthetic is about $6 a quart. I can hear you now, but I do have about 20 tractors at the present time and that adds up quick. 6X20=$120

That's great if you live in an area that you can run 30W year round. A lot of us have to switch to 10w-30 around November / December. Which is why the Amsoil run year round is actually much easier and cheaper for me. With the Amsoil 10-30/30W I don't have to drain good 30W out of a tractor just because we run into below zero temps.

[boovuc 1,090]

That is a great point dgoyette and one that I have stumbled over for years. I'd love to go synthetic but two of my tractors are going to run through the winter with a plow and a blower. NAPA showed me a straight 30w synthetic from a company I've never heard of that would kill me to use year round price wise let alone change out on two tractors for winter to a 10w-30.

If I could keep a synthetic Amsoil 10w30/30w year round in all the tractors and change it once a year instead of twice a year, it would almost pay for itself. Even if it is more and it probably is, it's a little more peice of mind.

Not to hijack the thread but on a side note question.........can synthetic motor oils be "burned" in waste oil burners?

Thanks,

[dcrage 621]

I know that my 10 horse Kohler is supposed to have 30 weight in non-winter conditions, but I have to admit I have been using 10W-30 year round for the past 5-10 years (I average <40 hrs/yr on my tractor and it seems like overkill to change it that quickly_Just as an aside; that puts the cost of my tractor at approx $3/hr of use_Make my Wheel Horse seem expensive when I do the cost that way) -- So why the need to switch to straight 30 weight in warmer weather? -- What is it about single cylinder Kohlers that is going to get hurt in the time it takes for your engine oil to warm up in the summer time??

[boovuc 1,090]

I hear you Dave and it isn't "just" the single cyl. Kohlers that recommend 30w above 32 degrees F. My twin KT Kohler manual and both my Onans state the same thing. Above 32 F, use API Service SF 30w.

To answer your question, both Kohler and Onan manuals state that "oil consumption and carbon deposits will occur if multi-weight oils are used above 32F".

[wheelhorse656 20]

I use penzoil 30w with detergent. I have seen the detergent non detergent debate but it says 30w detergent oil in the kohler book!

[HorseFixer 2,012]

All I can say is some of you have way too much time on your hands. I have been using regular 30W oil in small engines for as long as I can remember and never had a problem.

That's great if you live in an area that you can run 30W year round. A lot of us have to switch to 10w-30 around November / December. Which is why the Amsoil run year round is actually much easier and cheaper for me. With the Amsoil 10-30/30W I don't have to drain good 30W out of a tractor just because we run into below zero temps.

:help: