Martin 2,133 #26 Posted July 10, 2011 One other thought. You mentioned the possibility of detonation, which is something I've considered also. on the subject of detonation. was doing some reading and im almost positive that i have what is known as a 'LP' head. i was looking at this article on brian millers site.... cylinder head info interesting reading. here is my head, looks the same as a 'LP' head. so i wonder with the timing advanced if the noise is detonation, because now the timing is no where near as advanced and the engine is quieter. maybe thats why the premium worked better. the comp ratios that are quoted dont seem real high as engines go, '7.1 on a 10 hp motor' doesnt seem that high to me, maybe small engines are a different than your average auto engine. quote from the website: NOTE: This particular head was originally designed many years ago ONLY for the 10hp (K-241) engine because these engines have low compression due to their small bore and short stroke. The only reason anyone would put one of these heads on a bigger engine today is to attempt to get more power out of it. Also, people found that the LP head worked better than a newer low compression head on an engine burning liquefied petroleum (propane) gas. LP gas is a high octane fuel (about 110-115 octane). Therefore, it burns more thoroughly and produces more power in a high compression engine. That's why these heads are known today as the "LP head." Also, the LP head, when used on any size engine including the 10hp, have been known to cause detonation (pinging) nowadays even with 93 octane Premium gas. That's why Kohler stopped making them. They replaced them with the "dished" head. However, high octane race gas, E-85 or methanol fuels can be safely used with the LP head. any of you kohler engine guys have any comments on this? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tmessenger 0 #27 Posted July 10, 2011 Martin you may want to try octane booster to see if that takes care of the problem. I believe the LP head is worth some $ another member told me his brought $130 on ebay so you could sell that head and buy the later style lower compression head for next to nothing. And nice job on the restore, you done it proud. Tim Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunahead72 2,546 #28 Posted July 12, 2011 Martin, It's been a real pleasure reading along on this thread. Every time I check in there's something new to learn, about your engine and mine, and about Kohlers in general. Your engine DOES sound better, certainly quieter than it did in the early videos. And I think when you get to a point where you can say "it's better than it was, and I'm not sure how to make it any better without tearing it apart", that's a good time to just back away and live with it for a bit and see what happens. I'm not sure I understand your final timing adjustment, especially this part: still not running right so got out the timing light and checked timing to see where it was at. mark not even visible in the hole. had a dial back light so it was easy to find the mark on the flywheel....30 degrees on the dial back..... What do you mean by a "dial back light", is that a special kind of timing light, or can I use a standard timing light to accomplish the same thing you did? Thanks very much for everything you're doing here, and for passing it along to us! :woohoo: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martin 2,133 #29 Posted July 12, 2011 Martin, It's been a real pleasure reading along on this thread. Every time I check in there's something new to learn, about your engine and mine, and about Kohlers in general. Your engine DOES sound better, certainly quieter than it did in the early videos. And I think when you get to a point where you can say "it's better than it was, and I'm not sure how to make it any better without tearing it apart", that's a good time to just back away and live with it for a bit and see what happens. I'm not sure I understand your final timing adjustment, especially this part: still not running right so got out the timing light and checked timing to see where it was at. mark not even visible in the hole. had a dial back light so it was easy to find the mark on the flywheel....30 degrees on the dial back..... What do you mean by a "dial back light", is that a special kind of timing light, or can I use a standard timing light to accomplish the same thing you did? Thanks very much for everything you're doing here, and for passing it along to us! ed, just trying to help, hopefully adding a small part to the vast pool of knowledge on this forum as far as the light goes, yes you can use a standard light. i only have a dial back so thats what i use. i mainly dont use the dial back feature, just use it with the setting at 0 deg. i used to have a light that just used the spark plug connection and no battery hook up and that was the best. simple. the dial back is handy when you are dealing with the centrifugal adv and vac adv on auto engines. google it for a detailed explanation of how it works. it just helped me to be able to vary the advance through the light to find the flywheel marks through the small hole. it doesnt change the advance on the engine, just flashes light at a different flywheel degree. then i could work out if i needed to open the gap(adv) or close (retard) to get the spark mark near center of the hole. everything i do on this tractor is a learning experience and im enjoying it. i guess the whole head thing is just the latest learning curve. its been quite awhile since i was knee deep in something fun mechanically. as far as your engine goes, are you hearing the same sort of noise? you mentioned before its a k241s. what head do you have on it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunahead72 2,546 #30 Posted July 12, 2011 Me again, hope I'm not becoming a pest. Your explanation of the "dial back" method was exactly what I needed to know. I only have an old inductive light that a friend of mine gave me years ago, and I've never used it. Sounds like I'll just have to go through a semi-educated trial-and-error process to use it, no problem. -------- As far as my own engine, yes it's a K241S, the original engine on my 1986 310-8. It's been rebuilt twice, the second time two years ago, and I haven't felt good about it since I got it back. I know the guy mangled my oil level switch, I had a minor oil leak that I think I solved by removing my breather and installing it properly . And yeah, I went to talk to him, only to find that he had gone out of business and left town. And now this noise and a little vibration to go along with it, which I may be partly responsible for, but I'm not sure. It's similar to what I heard on your early video. I can't honestly remember when I first started hearing and feeling it, but it seems worse now after I replaced the points (gapped at .020") and adjusted the valves, in that order. My plan is to go back and check the timing again, static and/or dynamic, and see what happens. I'll also be upgrading to premium gas soon. My fear, of course, is that it's a rod problem, just like Bob suggested. This rebuild was done .020" over, new piston/rings, and I don't think the guy did any work on the crank. I really hope I don't have to tear it apart (just don't have the time or the knowledge), but I will if I have to, and I'm certainly not paying anybody else to mess with it again -- I can screw my engine up as well as anybody, for free, and learn something in the process. -------- About the cylinder head. I'm pretty sure I have what Brian Miller is calling the "2nd generation" head, but I can't be 100% sure until the next time I take it off, if then. If I remember correctly, the bottom side looks different than yours, and your fins seem to be a little taller than mine. I did a little research on the Kohler site. If yours is the original engine, it would be spec. 46215A. I couldn't find that, but spec. 46215 calls for head number 236546, or 236675 if your engine serial number is >3184999. My 1981 C-105 (spec. 46812) and 1986 310-8 (spec. 46863) both call for that 236675 head. So I suspect 236546 is the "LP" head, and 236675 is the "2nd gen." head, but I wouldn't necessarily bet the farm on it. ==> Any Kohler guys out there: I wonder if there's any other documentation around on these heads? Does Brian Miller take questions on his site, just to clarify some things? -------- And the learning experience continues.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martin 2,133 #31 Posted July 12, 2011 ed, no problem from me...... were both learning about these things....... setting the timing using a light is fairly easy. im sure if you can see the marks on the flywheel well then its just a matter of getting the s mark in the middle of the inspection hole when the timing light flashes. it might take a while but you will get it. i think i messed around with mine for 30 min or more before i got the hang of it. the hardest part for me was working out which way to go to get the s mark in the sight window. i couldnt see a mark at all, only red paint from the flywheel. thats where the dial helped, but its not essential. just open or close the point gap slowly while looking at the inspection hole with the timing light. you will see it move into view. my spec # is K241S my serial # is 777167 cylinder head......... from looking at the parts manual, page 31, var 23 for my spec number, the head part # is 236546. the illustration looks the same as mine. it uses the longer (2 1/2 inch ) head bolts as the bolt bosses are taller. the 236475 looks like it uses the shorter bolts. so you are right about mine being a 236546. do you have a copy of the parts manual? if you need one send me a pm with your email address and i will send you a pdf. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunahead72 2,546 #32 Posted July 13, 2011 Martin, Thanks for the timing light tips, I hope to get some time this weekend to mess with it, I'll probably start by painting the "S" mark with a Q-tip or something similar, we'll see how it goes. my spec # is K241S This number is actually your model number, but I think you knew that already. cylinder head......... from looking at the parts manual, page 31, var 23 for my spec number, the head part # is 236546. the illustration looks the same as mine. it uses the longer (2 1/2 inch ) head bolts as the bolt bosses are taller. the 236475 looks like it uses the shorter bolts. so you are right about mine being a 236546. This info. mostly looks correct, except I think you meant 236675 (not 236475) for the "other" head -- if you look at these numbers long enough, you'll go cross-eyed, or worse. I was able to verify all this on the Kohler site, too. The heads on my C-105 and 310-8 both look more like the 236675. The bolt lengths are curious. You say your head takes 2-1/2" bolts, which agrees with the parts manual for spec. 46215. The parts manual says my C-105 (spec. 46812) takes (8) 1-1/2" bolts and (1) 1-3/4" bolt, which I can believe but can't verify right now since it's currently in Virginia and I'm not; I suspect my 310-8 is similar. In contrast, Brian Miller's site says the "LP" and "Gen. 2" heads both take 2" bolts, but I don't see ANY 2" bolts in the cylinder head section of the parts manual. Don't know what's going on here, just trying to understand it all. ==> And yes, I do have the parts manual, although it only goes through spec. 46858, so it doesn't include my 310-8 (spec. 46863). It's the most current I've ever seen (dated 7/93), does anybody know of anything more complete? -------- I'm done for now, brain hurts. :woohoo: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunahead72 2,546 #33 Posted July 13, 2011 Just noticed something in this photo. There's a number stamped into the bottom of your head, along the edge nearest to the exhaust valve. I can't read it clearly from here, but it doesn't look like any of the numbers in the parts manual. Can you read it better from where you are? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martin 2,133 #34 Posted July 13, 2011 yeah i dont know what happened there....brain wasnt working or something.... yes, my spec # is 46215S the part # thing probably came from mixing the 3 different part # in the parts manual. there is 2 part numbers for the first style head and one for the second. in not going to type them as i will probably screw them up. (plus its too early 4.45 am) so heres the page from the manual. head is c1, my var # is 23. as far as the number cast in the head...... i think its 235451. i searched this # but couldnt come up with anything. the bolt length is another ? 2 inch is not long enough, where the start/gen bracket is that doesnt even make it through the head. look at 'a' in the scan above it lists 4 different bolt lengths. mine is var 23 so it takes the 2 1/2 bolts. i think i trimmed 7 of them to 2 1/4- 2 3/8 as 2 1/2 was just a little long. go figure. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Toolman 22 #35 Posted July 13, 2011 Let me add my .02 worth while we're at it. I read somewhere extensively(sp?) about K241's camshaft side play that would sound like a rod rattlin' It mighta been the guy that builds race kohlers in Columbia Mo. or some sight I just happened upon by luck on google. But kohler did have a serv bulletin or a fix-it kit out for'em at the time. It is just some shims that goes on one or the other ends of the cam to cure the knock in'em. Ronnie :woohoo: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunahead72 2,546 #36 Posted July 14, 2011 Let me add my .02 worth while we're at it. I read somewhere extensively(sp?) about K241's camshaft side play that would sound like a rod rattlin' It mighta been the guy that builds race kohlers in Columbia Mo. or some sight I just happened upon by luck on google. But kohler did have a serv bulletin or a fix-it kit out for'em at the time. It is just some shims that goes on one or the other ends of the cam to cure the knock in'em. Ronnie, You may have something here.... I took a look at Brian Miller's site (he's probably the guy in Columbia MO you were thinking about), and didn't see anything about camshaft end play, or any service bulletins or kits to fix it, but it's a big site and I could have easily missed it. I did find another thread on this forum that mentioned it though, so at least somebody else has run across this problem before: http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/index.php?showtopic=18446 It's a start.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Toolman 22 #37 Posted July 14, 2011 Let me add my .02 worth while we're at it. I read somewhere extensively(sp?) about K241's camshaft side play that would sound like a rod rattlin' It mighta been the guy that builds race kohlers in Columbia Mo. or some sight I just happened upon by luck on google. But kohler did have a serv bulletin or a fix-it kit out for'em at the time. It is just some shims that goes on one or the other ends of the cam to cure the knock in'em. Ronnie, You may have something here.... I took a look at Brian Miller's site (he's probably the guy in Columbia MO you were thinking about), and didn't see anything about camshaft end play, or any service bulletins or kits to fix it, but it's a big site and I could have easily missed it. I did find another thread on this forum that mentioned it though, so at least somebody else has run across this problem before: http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/index.php?showtopic=18446 It's a start.... http://www.kohlerplus.com/login.asp OK, start here with the guest login an then go to yer engine type, model an then spec # Forgot, ya gotta ck the accept box to login as a guest Then go to the camshaft page an you will find that they use these parts a/r =as required, meaning that the block or cam machining was not consistent. Or the cam from 1 block has got stuck in a differnt block via backyard mechanics like us?....... spacer/shims #'s are 275066-5-----.005 275067-5-----.010 By the way, the shims go at the small end of the camshaft Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
