C-160 K341 Trouble HELP!!!

[hcminis 1,700]

Well...most you know I recently was able to steal a C-160. The tractor had set out side for little over a year. When I got it home, just cleaned the tank, added fresh gas, shot some carb cleaner in the carburetor opening and she fired right up. The tractor has been running really good until the other day when I ran it out of gas. That is when the trouble started...maybe just a coincident but hasn't run since then.

The tractor will run fine just idling but when any amount of throttle is applied it will start popping and sometimes back fire. First thing I thought was the carb sucked a little junk from the tank that might have been in there. Since it was a plastic tank didn't figure any rust or major debris would be in there. So, I cleaned the tank and added an in line clear fuel filter. There was no filter so thought it was the problem. Well, that wasn't the problem. So, thought maybe the fuel pump was clogged from some of the junk. So, tore in to the pump and found a little junk but nothing major. Nope, that wasn't it either so the carburetor had to be the problem. First I just did a quick carb cleaner shoot through the supply port and front of the carb. Still didn't fix the problem. Now getting frustrated, I took the carb off and let it soak over night. That STILL didn't fix the problem. This evening was able to pull the head which revealed some carbon build up so cleaned it off and made sure the valves opened/closed properly. Plus, replace the condenser thinking it may not be operating properly. STILL not running except on low idle

Now, my next step is replace the spark plug (yes, I did check spark and it is good) and then if that doesn't work maybe pull the head again and use some carbon cleaner. After that, I have no clue.... Maybe the coil pack, points, breather? Really hope it is not a compression issue as I have no way to test that. The only thing it seems is the popping and back fire almost lead me to believe the fuel isn't getting burnt so I am really hoping the spark plug is bad. Never pulled the fly wheel and have seen some horror stories about that task. Believe the points are behind it but not for sure.

Any thoughts from the experts?

Sorry for the long winded post and everything I have done thus far is from reading all the help that has been given here and by a couple phone calls to a Member.

Thanks in advance.

[MaineDad 87]

When you soaked the carb, did you clean out the high speed mixture screw too? It's the top screw on the carb. If so, did you adjust it after?

It wouldn't be a bad idea to clean out the breather filter and reset the valves while the carb is off.

[Jim_M 179]

Sounds like a carburetor problem to me.

[rmaynard 16,333]

The points are not behind the flywheel, but under a cover near the bottom of the block on the carburetor side (left). No need to pull the flywheel.

I would suspect that the problem is fuel, not spark. Too many thing point to a carburetor or fuel pump problem.

As was stated earlier by MaineDad, pull the main needle valve and clean it thoroughly. This means taking a fine wire and cleaning all of the tiny holes, and make sure that air can pass through the tube from top to bottom.

Pull the bowl and remove the float and float valve. Make sure that there is nothing in the valve. If you ran the tank dry, and dirt got into the carburetor, the first place it would likely settle is in the float valve.

Check the fuel pump. Even though you took it apart, are you sure it's pumping? The C-160 has a tank that is higher than the carburetor, so you will get some gas flow by gravity. Remove the plug wire, then take the hose off of the carburetor and stick it in a small can. Crank the engine and see what kind of action you are getting from the fuel pump. If nothing is pumping, you have a pump problem.

[MikesRJ 558]

Helpful service documents:

Carter Carburetor Rebuild: http://www.mywheelhorse.com/graphics/file/...etorRebuild.pdf

Throttle Shaft Rebuild: http://www.mywheelhorse.com/graphics/file/...shingRepair.pdf

Kohler Engine Timing: http://www.mywheelhorse.com/graphics/file/...ngineTiming.pdf

[hcminis 1,700]

Carburetor: When I cleaned the carb is was completely tore down. Took the needle valves out small and large. Cleaned the large (long) with air compressor and air passed through the holes fine. Even blew in to the holes with my mouth to verify. Made sure everything was put back together just as I took it apart. Made sure the float was sitting level. Plus, I counted the turns when taking the needle valves out to make sure they were put back in the same way. Used pressurized air in the fuel supply port and every where else.

Points: thought they were NOT located behind the fly wheel but was told by two different people they were. Took the cover off and that is when I stopped. Thought to myself, "don't think so". Then proceeded to put the cover and everything back together. Now that Mike has been so grateful to supply the points timing pdf, I will check that this evening.

Fuel Pump: Yes, I did check and make sure the gas was pumping between the pump and carb. Took the hose off between the two and it was shooting up pretty good. Had to stop because it was getting all over the muffler it was pumping so well. However, that doesn't mean it was pumping high enough.

So, when I took the head off and there was so much carbon on top that is when I thought the gas wasn't being burnt and therefore causing the back fire out the muffler. But, after reading the points timing pdf, that may be the problem.

Still not ruling out the carburetor. Will get a rebuild kit with new needle valves and make sure those are ruled out.

Please excuse me as this is my first ever rebuild/trouble shooting experience. Taking my time with this because it is a real learning experience for me plus trying to be patient and do it right. However, getting frustrated so that is when I have to stop and remind myself this is not the end of the world (as was scheduled last weekend)

Thank you for all the help and again, please be patient with my "dumbness"

[rmaynard 16,333]

This is how most of us learned. Ask as many questions as you need to. There are no dumb questions. Be sure that if you buy a rebuild kit it includes needle valves. Most do not. They only have the bowl gasket, splash shield, and float valve/seat.

My suggestion is to not buy anything until you have tried all the free things first like timing, points cleaning and adjust, carb adjust/clean, valve adjust, spark plug gap, etc.

[hcminis 1,700]

Bob, Thank you sir. Yes, I will try all the free stuff first. Money is very tight so I don't want to spend any if it is not needed. Bought the condenser last night and wish I hadn't now...oh well.

Will check the points this evening and HOPE (fingers crossed) I can do it.

First thing I will do is take the hood off. Tired of working around it. Thought this would be a quick first carburetor clean and be off running. No such luck as I have the "Harrison curse" meaning anything that takes a normal person 10 minutes, takes me 10 days.

Thanks again.

[Cody 277]

Also make sure the condenser is on the negative side of the coil, if its on the positive side it will cause it to run like you are describing.

[hcminis 1,700]

Yup, condenser is on negative side.

[WheelHorseSteve 56]

Also make sure the condenser is well grounded. I had the same symptoms w/ my K341 (C-160) and it was because in changing the choke cable I forgot to reattach (ground) the condenser. Perhaps it isn't getting a good ground on the engine/frame?

[can whlvr 994]

i would also check the float,maybe its only letting a small bit of fuel by,just enough to idle

[gwgdog66 23]

Is your charging system working properly? Stator putting out the proper voltage? Rectifier regulator working right?

The reason I ask, my brother had the same issue last year with his 14 Hp K series. We went through everything you are doing. Carb, fuel pump, points; condenser. It wound up being the stator B+ wire hooking into the rectifier regulator not making a good connection.

http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/index.php?...&hl=tgranthamfd

[hcminis 1,700]

Well...Gary, I don't know. Don't have a clue about the Rectifier regulator or where it is?

Did put a new spark plug in on Friday of last week. The tractor started fine and ran for about 30 seconds on high idle....then back to the popping and a couple back fires. Still don't think it is the carburetor or fuel. Leading more towards electrical at this point but as I mentioned...NOT an expert and this is my first trouble shooting experience.

The points did look fine and were operating fine.

So, next will be the Rectifier regulator, check ALL wiring, and possibly the coil?

Anyone want to come over and help a novice? Do have beer in the frig...

[Dresden Guy 24]

First off, I'm not an expert, but I have read many of the WH experts writings on RS, and a couple of things I remember that I don't think have been specifically mentioned:

1. A small pin hole in the carb float can affect the fuel flow. I recall that some have said they are almost impossible to find or see, but can cause big problems;

2. You may have a plug wire or some other wire that the outside sheilding is intact but the wire inside is broken or making poor contact and causing and inconsistent electrical flow.......?????

Again, these are tips I read and maybe they could be occuring in your K-341. I have two C-160s and love them, but I'm sure I am going to be doing some engine work before the summers over.

Good Luck,

Be sure to let everyone know when you uncover the nemesis. Hope you can put an end to the "Harrison Curse"!!

[rmaynard 16,333]

You do not need the charging system hooked up for the engine to run. All you need is a reasonably charged battery or some other source for 12 volts to be applied to the coil. When I rebuilt my K241S, it sat on the tractor frame with nothing more than the battery hooked with the (-) to the engine block, and (+) to the starter and the coil. The charging system (stator and rectifier) was not even hooked up. The engine ran for hours that way during break in.

[hcminis 1,700]

Well...back to being totally confused.

Guess I'll buy a carburetor rebuild kit. Then if that don't work get a new plug wire. Then if that don't work a new coil. Then...sell the dern thing if none of those work.

[rmaynard 16,333]

Don't give up. The thing you have to remember is that an internal combustion engine needs basically 3 things to make it run; fuel, spark, and compression.

Let's get back to basics again. You said that the engine ran fine until it ran out of gas. Then you filled it up, and it started to act up after that. To me, that is the big clue. I am still going to say the problem is with the "fuel" part of the equation. I'm not big on coincidences, so I don't think the coil or something in the ignition went bad at the same time the tank ran dry.

Read this link. It will help you understand carburetors.

http://gardentractorpullingtips.com/carbfuel.htm

Keep at it. You will find the problem.

[shorts 182]

I seem ti have more than my fair share of problems with bad floats, take it out and look for deformaties then shake it and look for signs of fuel leaking out of it. if either condition exists replace the float. I use a simple mail scale to weigh the floats and compare a new float to the installed one.

[gwgdog66 23]

Well...Gary, I don't know.

[hcminis 1,700]

Thanks guys...will try a few more things. Greatly appreciate the help. Just glad this isn't my "mowing" tractor.

Gonna try to do a few other little tests that I have learned from reading and watching as well.

Haven't been able to even look at the tractor since last Friday. Wife, kids, dogs, work, LIFE....it all happens and my spare time is a little limited right. I'm sure everyone has similar LIFE situations.

However, will get on the old girl as soon as I can and keep everyone informed.

[rmaynard 16,333]

I wish I were closer to you. I love a challenge. But central Maryland and central Indiana are about 600 miles apart. Hopefully we can get this thing fixed via the ethernet.

[Electro12WH 50]

Let's get back to basics again. You said that the engine ran fine until it ran out of gas. Then you filled it up, and it started to act up after that. To me, that is the big clue

Bad fuel?

[hcminis 1,700]

OK...dumb question time.

I have a small plastic tank that came from a push mower. Can I have someone hold that tank up above the carburetor and allow fuel to flow via gravity? Then have the fuel pump supply hose stuck in the gas can? This way I can verify it is not the fuel pump and see how much the pump is actually pumping. Don't think I have to use the pump if the gas is high enough for constant flow.

Thanks in advance.

[Cody 277]

Also try unscrewing the gas cap a little to verify the vent in the cap is not blocked, or remove the cap completely and try it.