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ALP

WH 414-8 wiring Diagram needed

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ALP

I have a 414-8 that won't start this yr. Would like a wiring diagram and/or service manual. Any ideas where to download pdf? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Note: Seat switch no longer seems to function and would bypass if that's all it is.

Thx in advance!

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tunahead72

Do you know your model number? It's part of the information on the VIN plate, which is located on the rear fender, either in front of or to one side of the seat. The model number will help you locate the proper manuals and diagrams for your tractor.

The model number should be something like 31-14K801 (the model number for the 1986 model year 414-8).

If you can't read the VIN plate on the tractor, you can get a major clue from the engine on your machine. Up through 1986, the 414-8 used a Kohler K-321, and in 1986 they started using a Kohler Magnum -- both of these have a separate VIN found on the blower housing (at least on the K-321, probably somewhere similar on the Magnum).

You can usually find manuals and diagrams on the Toro web site, but you need to know your model number, and they often want you to buy them instead of just downloading them. Once you know your model number and identify the correct manual, you can download pdfs from the Yahoo Wheel Horse manuals group, or from MyWheelHorse.com (sorry, I don't have exact links in front of me).

You can also get a real good feel for how things work on these machines by looking at the parts diagrams on some of the online parts suppliers sites -- PartsTree.com is my current favorite.

And if you stick around here long enough, you may get lucky and somebody will have a link to the exact manual you need! :wh:

--------

By the way, why do you think your seat switch is not working properly? I bypassed mine a few years ago, but you'll hear advice from others here that it's not a safe thing to do. And I've become convinced they're right. I was actually able to get off my tractor while the mower was engaged the other day, and I finally realized how stupidly dangerous that was -- I'll be putting a new seat switch on my parts wish list real soon.

Good luck!

And :thumbs:

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IthacaJeff

Having the wiring diagram can help, but you still need to have a plan of attack.

The first place to look would be the seat switch and the PTO safety switch. You

might want to try and hotwire start the engine just to see if that works. (Direct

link from battery + side to starter).

Jeff in Enfield NY

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Irv

:thumbs: If it's a safety switch problem it shouldn't crank at all. If it cranks then I would check/replace the plug. Did you run the carb empty when you put it away for the winter? If not, then give it a shot of carb cleaner and try to start it.

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ALP

First of all thanks for the quick feedback and thanks in advance for your patience as I am just learning about this tractor as I go. Also, I have not yet reviewed your links but plan to tonight.

This tractor has been in the family since new and due to smaller yards now, it really doesn't get much use anymore so it's been garaged for several years. Unfortunately it's not at my house and I will have to get the VIN this weekend if still needed after reviewing everything. Hopefully, I can move it to my house soon and continue to fix her up.

I suspected the seat switch simply because it was working last time it was used (only once) last year and now it does not. Could jump out for troubleshooting. Anyway, here's what I know so far in the few minutes and limited tools that I had with me at the time.

It had no fuel, so I gave about 1/4 of tank, choked and cranked a bit. No Luck. I pulled the plug (replaced last yr), grounded, and cranked. It has a strong spark, so my first thoughts were either it's not getting fuel or something like an interlock...is telling it not to send fuel. So, before I jump the gun and unnecessarily start disassembling stuff, I wanted to get more familiar with all the interlocks in the schematics. It would my luck its something like a flaky switch, loose connection, wire rub...

Just to confirm, is there anything electrical that would inhibit fuel flow? Also, please note that I did double check the fuel cut-off valve on the bottom of tank. :thumbs:

By the way, I found a good doc that I am sure you guys have seen called "1985 - 2001 Toro WH Demystification Guide" that looks great but I can't find a free PDF download of it. Any suggestions? Thanks again!

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ALP

JimD - Thanks for the Owners Manual. Looks like just what I need so far. Hopefully, it matches my model year. :thumbs:

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gwest_ca

You can download the 523 page Demystification Guide from

https://lookup3.toro.com/request/request.cfm

Use 31-14K803 for a model number and the word none for a serial number.

The wiring diagram in the Guide is wrong for the 1986 414-8 model 31-14K801 using the K-Series engine and 3amp dual charging circuit. Wiring diagram is correct in the operator manual.

The wiring diagram in the Guide is wrong for the 1987 414-8 model 31-14K802 using the M-Series engine and 3amp dual charging circuit. The wiring diagram is correct in the operator manual thanks to tunahead72. It is in the Files of

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wheelhorsetractormanuals3/

The wiring diagram in the Guide is correct for the 1988 414-8 model 31-14K803 using the M-Series engine and 15amp charging circuit.

Garry

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tunahead72

ALP,

I'm no expert on these things, but I think Irv's advice is a very good place to start.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe there's anything electrical that would interrupt your fuel flow.

Since this machine has been sitting for so long, you may simply have some really bad gas in your fuel line and possibly gumming up the carburetor. Was the 1/4 tank that you put in fresh fuel? If it wasn't, you may want to drain it off and start again with fresh.

Do you have a fuel filter on this tractor? If so, make sure it's not clogged up and blocking the flow. If you don't have one, I would recommend putting a decent quality filter on there at some point when you get a chance.

I would also take off the air cleaner, make sure the throttle and choke cables are free and operating like they should, and then spray a little carb cleaner inside to free things up a bit. Try to hit the ends of the choke shaft, open the choke and spray anything you can reach inside, but don't overdo it. Be careful with the carb cleaner, it'll wreck rubber parts, so I would use WD40 or something else mild if you need to free up the cables or other moving parts outside the carb.

Put the air cleaner back on and try to start her again, let us know what happens, we'll be here. :thumbs:

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Duff

Adding to the excellent points above, since you have a strong spark and can turn the tractor over, my guess it's not an electrical problem but rather one with fuel delivery. This is not uncommon on machines that have been sitting idle for a period of time.

So here's a series of steps I would follow, partly troubleshooting and partly maintenance/upgrading:

1) Remove the fuel line from the fuel pump and reroute it down so that gravity will allow gas to flow from the tank (fuel shut-off must be open).

2) If you get fuel, then the filter screen inside the gas tank and the in line fuel filter (if you have one) aren't plugged. If no fuel, break the line at the in-line filter and see if gas then starts flowing. If not, the filter screen inside the tank is probably blocked with crud accumulated over the years. The best bet is to replace the entire shut-off valve and rubber bushing that holds it in. Not expensive, and probably not a bad idea anyway on a tractor that's 20+ years old.

3) If you get fuel flow that confirms the tank filter isn't clogged and don't want to replace the shutoff, I would nonetheless replace the entire fuel line and put in a new in-line fuel filter. With age and today's fuel, the inside of the rubber lines starts to harden and break down and little pieces can flake off, eventually ending up in the carb where they can cause all manner of heartache. At the same time I would prepare to replace the short fuel line between the fuel pump and the carb. Any auto parts store should have decent generic 1/4" fuel line for sale by the foot - just check to be sure it's rated for fuel with an ethanol content. Buy a couple feet extra (reason for this will show up below). Make sure you install the in-line fuel filter where you can get at it easily, as it should be changed annually.

4) Once you have the new fuel line in place but before hooking it up to the fuel pump, do the gravity flow trick again. This will make sure no little pieces of dust or dirt were either hiding inside the new line or managed to sneak in there during installation.

5) Hook the new fuel line up to the inlet side of the fuel pump. Now use the extra couple of feet of fuel line I suggested you buy and attach it to the outlet side of the pump, routing it into a can or portable fuel tank. Open the fuel shut off at the gas tank. Take the spark plug out of the engine to relieve compression and turn the engine over. You should see fuel pulsing from the fuel line coming out of the pump. If not, the pump may simply be dried out. Apply some (light) air pressure to the filler of the fuel tank and this should prime the pump. Actually, this should create a gravity flow through the pump and down into the catch can or tank. Life the line up to stop the gravity flow, then try turning the engine over again. If fuel pulses out of teh line, the fuel pump is probably OK. If it doesn't pulse, the pump is probably shot and will need either rebuilding or replacement.

6) There are a couple of different ways to go now. Either hook the fuel pump to the carb and try to start the tractor, or (recommended) pull the carb and clean it thoroughly before going any further. At the very least, you may want to take off the fuel bowl and be sure there's nothing built up (dirt/rust/rubber chunks). Just be very careful not to let the float drop down or you may lose your needle valve. Taking the carb off the tractor is a very simple process (threads on carb cleaning elsewhere on this site), so it's probably best to take it off completely and clean it properly.

...and if after all of this the darned thing still doesn't start, well, we have a slew of people around here who know a whole lot more about small engines than I do. One way or the other, we'll get you going again!

Duff :thumbs:

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shorts

the engine has to have 3 things to run, spark,fuel, and compression, since you have spark pull the sparkplug out and and ground the plugwire so that it doesn't bite you,put your thumb over the plug hole and crank the engine if it blows your thumb away you have compression, if not you have a valve stuck open and will probably need to remove the head to free up the valve, usually a little pb blaster and a quick twist to free up the valve stem and reassemble with a new head gasket. if it has compression it's a fuel issue, pull the air cleaner and squirt a little gas in the carb, use a pump type oilcan or squirt bottle, with the choke and throttle wide open and crank it over, it should fire a couple of times before it uses the gas, squirt it a couple more times to keep it running and see if it will pick up fuel and start running on its own, if not start checking for fuel at the carb inlet and go from there, fuel yes-the carb needs love,fuel-no the fuelpump or filter needs love :thumbs:

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tunahead72

Duff and shorts -- Nice stuff there, could be very helpful!

And ALP -- If you get to the head gasket work, there's a link to a detailed write-up on this topic done by a guy outside this forum. It's easy, I do it every spring on both my Wheel Horses, I think it makes a difference in how they both run.

Here's the link:

http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/index.php?showtopic=20507

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ALP

Thanks for all of the support and advice. I will try again this weekend. Does anyone know how fuel is pumped to the carb? I assume based on previous suggestions that there is an actual pump and its electrically operated? Is this safe assumption? I am sure I will find out once I get back to it but thought I would try to confirm here. Thanks again to all!

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dgjks6

the pump is mechanically activated by the cam. new pump is about $50 and does not take long to change.

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shorts

follow the fuel line from the carb down to the pump, it's below the carb and next to the cam gear cover

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Warning:Unsupervised

Hey Tunahead72 you're very smart to reinstall safety switch before losing a foot my friend. They're on there because we all tend to have a dumb arse attack at some point. Some people I know have several a day..lol

 

Yrs ago' I bought a horse an owner hacked all the safety switches on and I didnt know it (yet). The morning after buying it I was looking things over, well' actually screwing around half asleep before my first cup of coffee. Warning- Never do this either folks, NEVER!!..lol  

 

  To this day I don't know why I did such a dumb thing but' while waiting on my old slow coffee maker to finish brewing I simply pulled my new (to me) horse around my house and parked it, just to piddle with it. We all know the drill.

  Well' I went back inside the house and fixed my 1st morning cup of coffee. Came right back out, tilted the tractors hood up (coffee in hand), then my dumb arse reached over and simply hit the ignition key. That horse fired right up, took off run'n, it knocked me down spilling my coffee, man it was really sh!# 'n and get'n cause it was shut off in high gear (by me). It flew straight down my sidewalk, hood fully tilted and' whaaam into my concrete steps it went, bouncing halfway up my back porch steps and it kept right on trying to climb them too. Up/down Up/down Up/down ramming into my stair railing each time rolling back down again/again...lol  It was one crazy horse, I finally was able to get close enough to grab it by its reins, well' turn the key off to stop its engine...lol  

  It put a few fist size dents in her hood and grille from my steps/railing, scratched it up real bad and had hot coffee all over it. Thankfully it was damaged before I painted it, this could have been after new paint/decals.

 

  Now' I really feel lucky my porch was there because a few ft over to the left, my horse could have missed my porch and sailed through my 2 acre yard, down my big steep hill right into my heavily wooded area with an old 5ft tall barbed wire cattle fence in it.  Hard to see but its in there somewhere. We all know what barbed wire fencing can do to a horse.

  I'm sure the hood would have been totally unsalvageable had it missed my porch hitting my big trees and most likely I'd lost a front axle from the down hill speed it reached and surely my nice original seat destroyed from that fence too.  I can still see my lil' dead horse in my mind.  Well okay, lol.. I did learn to verify all safety switches work from that day on. 

 

  Please fix all non working switches right now people, it is how people lose feet/hands.  Never mess with your horse before that first cup of java either or it may get crazy and knock ya down..lol  At least I can blame it on my lack of coffee instead of total ignorance for turning its key without sitting on it first with the clutch engaged. Grrrr WTH was I thinking, It shouldn't have started but it sure did.  Stay safe folks!

Edited by 123GO
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tunahead72

Wow, I posted that advice and little story 9 years ago, just a couple months after I joined this club, almost sounded like I knew what I was talking about! :D

 

There was a minor detail I left out for some reason, which was that not only was I able to get off the tractor while the mower was engaged, the tractor was actually in gear and moving!  Another WTH was I thinking moment, obviously.  I did replace the seat switch shortly after that incident, but last year I had some problems with my PTO switches (still not totally resolved) and "temporarily" disconnected the seat switch again, and I don't think I ever went back and reconnected it.  Thanks for the reminder!

 

Your experience must have been frightening, runaway Horse damaging your house, and worst of all losing a perfectly good cup of coffee!

 

Be safe guys!  I'm not a huge fan of safety switches, but the ones that were on these machines 30 plus years ago really aren't that bad to deal with, especially compared to the nannies that control the latest generation of lawn and garden machines.

 

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Warning:Unsupervised

Ya' I seen it was yrs ago Tunahead72, I tend to look back at these old threads just out of boredom and OMG how true those words are about today's mowers on their safety bs I'm just glad we don't have to push a button or rent a flag man for reverse because it was touch and go on those laws a few yrs ago.

Hope you get that PTO switch lined out too and the thing about that day was I woke the hell right up when it happened so a second cup wasn't even needed.:D  But I sure needed a :angry-chillpill:.

Peace!

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