Fly Wheel On Big Block Kohlers

[WH854 44]

Will the fly wheel interchange on the big block Kohlers

Chas

[WH854 44]

I just found the answer to my on question Here it is fron Brian Miller

the flywheel for the 10, 12, 14, 16hp flatheads and the 18hp OHV single cylinder Kohler K-series and Magnum engines will interchange. They all have the same taper in the center, and most of them have two or four tapped holes for accessories, and for using an automotive harmonic balancer/vibration damper puller tool to remove the flywheel from the crankshaft.

Chas

[KB9LOR 4]

Did you also know that the crank will interchange between the 12,14,16 Kohlers? only difference is the Piston? Same stroke. Just a tidbit..... :thumbs:

[TT-(Moderator) 1,129]

Did you also know that the crank will interchange between the 12,14,16 Kohlers? only difference is the Piston? Same stroke. Just a tidbit.....

That's actually wrong.

K321 & K341 cranks will interchange, but a K301 crank is balanced differently due to the lighter reciprocating assembly.

The 301 cranks will have milled "bottoms" (opposite from the rod journal) on the balance weights and the 321/341 weights are "as cast" rounded on "bottom".

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@ Chas:

Big block flywheels will interchange as far as the center hole size/taper design and keyway dimensions are concerned, but there are many other variables - including magnet count and style, diameter, ring gear tooth count, etc. They are all zero-balanced, so at least that isn't an issue when swapping.

Many comparable Magnum flywheels can also be used on the K series, but not vice-versa. (because of the ignition magnets)

[WH854 44]

My reason for the question was, some starters have 13 teeth on starter gear and some have 10 teeth my C-165 has 13 teeth, my C-105 has 10 teeth. If you do not buy OEM starters you run into this problem.some sites advertise starters for 10 through 16 HP, but most are only 10 teeth, will these work on 16 HP, and if this is the case is 13 teeth better for 16 HP do I make myself clear

Chas

[TT-(Moderator) 1,129]

Tooth count is determined by the pitch/number of teeth on the ring gear/flywheel diameter, the distance between the crankshaft centerline and the starter motor shaft centerline.

Because the starter motor is mounted directly to the engine block, you must use a gear with the same tooth count/pitch/diameter as the original.

Providing they are the same diameter, a 10 tooth gear will have teeth that are larger/farther apart than a 13 tooth gear.

I think I know where you're going with the "more teeth on the starter will turn the engine over faster" theory, but they HAVE to mesh correctly with the flywheel.

If I make it to the shop in the next day or three, I'll see what I can come up with.

[WH854 44]

TT I got some more information on starter ring gears Brian Miller says!!

The same starter ring gear fits the 8hp, 10hp, 12hp, 14hp, 16hp and the OHV (Over Head Valve) 18hp single cylinder Kohler K-series and Magnum engines. Only the 8hp flywheel itself is different. It's taper is smaller.

Would this mean that all ring gears have the same tooth count no matter what HP they are ?

Chas

[TT-(Moderator) 1,129]

I probably won't make it to the shop until tomorrow.

I will not even try to respond until I compare actual flywheels and ring gears. (and starters - if I can find them)

[stevasaurus 22,272]

Thanks for showing me this Chas...interested also. If TT can't find the starters, have both 10 and 13 teeth laying in the garage...can take pictures and measurements. Do not know what engine smokinJoe got the 13 tooth one off of...can ask It appears to be the same starter and the pinions look to be interchangeable. Be watching. :thumbs:

[TT-(Moderator) 1,129]

Naturally, all of the starters decided to hide from me - and I wasn't going to attempt the seek & find game.

I did find a few flywheels though. Oddly enough, all ring gears are the same on the ones I found.

All four of these bigger flywheels are 12hp Kohler and not one of them is the same as the other. (the one on the bottom left is off an M12)

I posted this picture as proof that all flywheels are not created equal.

I'd like to see Brian Miller put this M8 ring gear (top) on the M12 flywheel (bottom)

Here's what I went looking for, but found it only on a K181 and an M8 flywheel (M8 on left / K181 on right):

It's not hard to see there's a lot more teeth on the K181 ring gear - and quite a few on the starter gear too:

I'll see what else I can dig up when I get a chance - or find some starters.

Any measurements you can get will be a huge help, Steve. :D

[stevasaurus 22,272]

TT...glad to help. Are we talking the pinion for measurements on the starter??? I'll post some picks of the starters in the morning. Just let me know what you need. :thumbs:

[WH854 44]

Looks like that starter in that last picture is a low mount starter. The starters on my 10 and 16HP are High mount starters.

Chas

[KB9LOR 4]

Did you also know that the crank will interchange between the 12,14,16 Kohlers? only difference is the Piston? Same stroke. Just a tidbit.....

That's actually wrong.

K321 & K341 cranks will interchange, but a K301 crank is balanced differently due to the lighter reciprocating assembly.

The 301 cranks will have milled "bottoms" (opposite from the rod journal) on the balance weights and the 321/341 weights are "as cast" rounded on "bottom".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

@ Chas:

Big block flywheels will interchange as far as the center hole size/taper design and keyway dimensions are concerned, but there are many other variables - including magnet count and style, diameter, ring gear tooth count, etc. They are all zero-balanced, so at least that isn't an issue when swapping.

Many comparable Magnum flywheels can also be used on the K series, but not vice-versa. (because of the ignition magnets)

I guess my theory on those being the same is shot to heck! That was a tidbit TT that I had not taken into consideration, I guess I had better go back out and compare those again! Thanks for pointing out that error....

[TT-(Moderator) 1,129]

Looks like that starter in that last picture is a low mount starter. The starters on my 10 and 16HP are High mount starters.

Chas

That's a K-181 (8hp), Chas.

[WH854 44]

My K-181 does not have one of them kind of fly wheels

(No ring gear)

Chas

[stevasaurus 22,272]

Took some pictures...the starters themselves are the same. #M030SM on the bottom cap. I found 2 differences...(1) one pinion has 10 teeth and the other has 13 teeth...(2)the 13 tooth pinion is a larger diameter then the 10 tooth pinion. The pinions are the same height.

13 teeth measures 1.5" and the 10 teeth measures 1.2"

I found it interesting that the 2 pinions, when rolled together mesh perfectly, so there may be a difference in the ring gear...not sure about that, but it makes since.

[stevasaurus 22,272]

If you guys don't mind...I would like to link these two threads because of the pinions.

http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/index.php?showtopic=24429

[Kelly 1,028]

I've used both starter gears on the same engine with no ill effects, and every Case garden tractor starter I've pulled, has been the 13 tooth.

[WH854 44]

All I wanted to know is will a 10 tooth starter fit on a k341 or does it need a 13 tooth one!! Most of the after market starters are from 10 through 16 HP are listed as 10 tooth ones. If they work on 10 through 16 HP then the ring gear must be the same on the later model big blocks (whether the are 10,12,14,16 HP)

[WH854 44]

I took an American Bosch Brand Starter of my c-165 a while back when I got it for free, It was a 10 tooth starter,so I ordered a drive kit for it.the seller said the kit is for American Bosch and United Tech for Kohler engines.Picture of kit

This is a 10 tooth kit The teeth part is upside down

Chas

[WH854 44]

:thumbs: The american Bosch starter Is in bad shape, bearings are shot magnets are bad too .

Chas

[KB9LOR 4]

Did you also know that the crank will interchange between the 12,14,16 Kohlers? only difference is the Piston? Same stroke. Just a tidbit.....

That's actually wrong.

K321 & K341 cranks will interchange, but a K301 crank is balanced differently due to the lighter reciprocating assembly.

The 301 cranks will have milled "bottoms" (opposite from the rod journal) on the balance weights and the 321/341 weights are "as cast" rounded on "bottom".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

@ Chas:

Big block flywheels will interchange as far as the center hole size/taper design and keyway dimensions are concerned, but there are many other variables - including magnet count and style, diameter, ring gear tooth count, etc. They are all zero-balanced, so at least that isn't an issue when swapping.

Many comparable Magnum flywheels can also be used on the K series, but not vice-versa. (because of the ignition magnets)

I guess my theory on those being the same is shot to heck! That was a tidbit TT that I had not taken into consideration, I guess I had better go back out and compare those again! Thanks for pointing out that error....

TT with what you said on the balance gears, most everyone I know takes them out upon rebuild, as they are known as "grenade gears, they will interchange with no problems as long as the balance gears are removed. Here is the good part, I had a customer put a 14 crank in a 16, left out the balance gears, put the 14 guts in it and only swapped the piston and rings, and has no problems. I will get to his house and see it run first hand for verification. And report back those findings.

[buckrancher 2,678]

the two pinons meshing together 10 & 13 tooth just means the tooth pitch is the same just the diameter is different I would suspect a mounting location difference

between the starters for the pinon diameter plus the 10 tooth should have more torque

Brian

[TT-(Moderator) 1,129]

TT with what you said on the balance gears, most everyone I know takes them out upon rebuild, as they are known as "grenade gears, they will interchange with no problems as long as the balance gears are removed. Here is the good part, I had a customer put a 14 crank in a 16, left out the balance gears, put the 14 guts in it and only swapped the piston and rings, and has no problems. I will get to his house and see it run first hand for verification. And report back those findings.

This has nothing to do with the balance gears. I'm talking about the counterweights on the crankshaft.

As I previously posted, the 14 & 16 hp crankshafts are balanced the same and will interchange. Putting a 12hp crankshaft in either of those two engines will result in a VERY noticeable vibration.

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@buckrancher:

I believe your theory of the mounting location difference is correct and is exactly what I was thinking too. I just haven't been able to find the two different starters to compare. :thumbs:

[KB9LOR 4]

TT with what you said on the balance gears, most everyone I know takes them out upon rebuild, as they are known as "grenade gears,