Fence post help

[IthacaJeff 151]

Hi all:

The garden we plan on putting in will require a 7' fence to keep out the deer, and

we are planning on using locust poles -- if we can find them long enough. Anyway,

I've been confused by what I've read about the depth of the poles into the ground.

I've read 1/3 the length of the pole (so about 3' in my case), below the frost line

(42" here in CNY), and 2' if using concrete (no).

What is the depth you northerners have put your fence poles? Also, any of you

CNYers know a locust pole supplier?

Thanks,

Jeff in Enfield, NY

[sscotsman 132]

Jeff,

I think you can safely ignore the "1/3 the length of the pole" guideline..thats completely pointless! different depths depending on the height of the fence? no..not around here, not with frost heave.

I know 42" seems extreme, but IMO you should really aim for that.

otherwise your poles can end up all skewed and messed up come spring.

most winters the frost wont actually go that deep..9 years out of 10 you can probably get away with three feet deep..but building codes say it has to be that deep, because the frost *can* go that deep if its an unusually cold winter..

but it also depends on how "permanent" you want this fence to be..If its something that will need to be replaced every 5 years or so, 3 feet deep might be ok, because if the poles heave a bit, its not a huge deal..

I would go three feet absolute minimum..

Also, for a garden fence, hopefully you dont have to be concerned with building codes..but you never know..we ARE talking about NY state afterall..

My advice..Do three feet deep, and you will probably be fine.

and if you are going to do 3 feet..might as well just keep going to 42"!

because "its easier and cheaper to do it right the first time"!

you dont want to be digging new holes every spring..

Whats the length/circumference of the fence?

Scot

[Shuboxlover 474]

The frost line here in Nebraska is anywhere from 34"-38" and they recommend the 1/3 rule.

Good luck, that's A LOT of diggin!!!! :thumbs:

[sscotsman 132]

interesting..another mention of the 1/3 rule..

I have never heard of this before, and I honestly dont understand it..

what difference does the height above ground make?

its only the amount IN the ground that is a factor for frost heave..

So if you have a 2 foot tall fence, you only "need" 8 inches in the ground,

but a four foot fence "needs" 15 inches?

that makes zero sense to me..both are far too shallow to avoid frost heave..

how can this 1/3 rule possibly make any sense?

anyone have any clarification on that?

Maybe in Arizona or Florida it can be a useful guideline..just to keep a fence from tipping over..but anywhere you have a real winter I dont see how it can work..

even a fence 7 feet above ground results in only 28" in the ground when using the 1/3 rule..which is *still* too shallow for any North East or Upper Midwest states..

Scot

[AMC RULES 36,945]

Yep agree, 42" by code is correct for NYS. That one third stuff is nonsense to me too. What is the explanation for it? :thumbs:

[stoneman 10]

1/3 the length of the post or pole applies to utility poles . . . not fence post.

If you want locust posts . . . find a few locust trees that you can cut down and take them to a sawmill. If you want a 7' fence, you'll need 10' or 10 1/2 foot posts.

If you find one good locust tree, you'll be amazed by how many posts you can get.

Does your fence really need to be 7' above ground?

[IthacaJeff 151]

Hi guys;

The 1/3 rule, as Stoneman indicated, I believe is an adaptation of utility pole

guidelines. Clealy a 30 foot tall pole needs to be more than 4' in the ground.

Anyway, the 42" frost depth is a problem given a 7' above ground fence. It's

kinda hard to buy a 10'6" pole, or even an 11' pole for that matter. And 12

footers? Whoa on the price!

I've read all the tricks about keeping deer away and none are feasible in our

area except for a fence. Too many kids, plus we also need to keep out the little

critters as well. Last summer we did an experimental garden with no fence, and

got almost nothing. Not even our border collie peeing all over the place could

keep them out.

I guess we could go with a shorter fence, e.g., 5'-6', and put some kind of

"topper" to add a foot or so. The garden area itself will be a minimum of

40' x 60', perhaps closer to 50x60, make for about 22 posts (and holes!) 10

feet apart. Welded wire fencing, perhaps some 1'x6' fence rails at the bottom

and top.

A Google image search provides some ideas, but I'm happy to hear more.

Jeff in Enfield NY

[stoneman 10]

jeff . . . another solution would be to set your posts into 12" deep holes, then put a 2' dirt bank around the perimiter. I'd put an ad on CL for 10' locust posts wanted in farm and garden. 36" depth is plenty for fence posts. plenty. they may move a little, but should also go back in place when the ground thaws, and that's if the frost gets below 3' which at least around here is rare. very rare.

[Brrly1 1,146]

I would think that 36" would be more than enough. I have drilled many holes at that depth with no problem. You might want to check a rental place as they probably rent post hole diggers for a one man operation. They work really well. Good luck

:thumbs:

[GlenPettit 1,714]

It's the corners that are most important

[6wheeler 586]

I would agree with Glen on that. The corners are where you need the most strength. But, then I am more worried about keeping cattle in than critters out. A 7' fence huh? You guys must be fighting Elk or Moose out there . We have alot of Deer over here as well but for some reason they don't bother my gardens. Must be enough cropland around me that they don't bother with my gardens. Here is something you could try. Make a 4 or 5 wire fence, put your bottom wire about 5" from the ground, run the next one up about 8" above that one. Then run your top wire close to the top of the fenceposts, and space the other 2 wires equally from the top to the 4th wire. Use a electric fencer and make the top 2 wires and the bottom 2 wires hot. At 5" any small critters should get hit. The 8" shocker will get nosey neighborhood dogs and cats. And if a Deer sniffs at the 4th wire up and gets zapped he will more than likely find easier pickings elsewhere. I don't know if you are looking for a permanent yard fence or just a temporary inexpensive fix to protect the garden. This will probably be the cheapest and can be temporary. That way you can move it to a different location if that suits your needs. Just my 2 cents. Good Luck. Pat

[IthacaJeff 151]

Good advice, folks.

I thought about the electric fence route, but the way the kids (all 6) and dog run

around, and balls going everywhere, an electric fence is out. Our neighbor has

a 4 wire electric fence around his cattle farm across the street, and even that gets

in our way! (Errant frisbees, baseballs, etc., though the dog learned real quick.)

"Our" deer are rampant and voracious, and we live near a densely wooded area

that they pop out of every night. It is hunted some, and the coyotes I sure get

their share, but we'll get 6-10 deer in our yard every night. The dog will chase

them into the woods, but even he won't go deep into the thickets. But he's not

an "outside all night" kinda dog

And yes, we plan on doing it right. It won't be cheap, but hopefully something to

be proud of and enhance the property. 1.5 years ago I build a small pole barn, and

barely got through 3 holes with a rented hydraulic auger before one, then another,

broke. Hired a guy with an auger on a skidsteer to finish the job. The fence

post holes won't be as deep nor as wide, so a rented auger should be fine.

Jeff in Enfield NY

[GlenPettit 1,714]

Jeff:

When you put the posts in can make a big difference, in the early Spring the ground can be very soft and easy to dig, especially deeper down, but if you wait until the ground is drier, even by late May, it can be rock-hard.

Seems like as soon as we conquer one type of pest, the next one rears up.

Good Luck,

Michigan Glen