Need some electrical advice/help

[forphase1 5]

Hopefully someone can give me some advice or hints about what else to do. I really am stumped. Here are the facts.

I have a 1975 C-160 Automatic that I bought last year, but only now am really finding the time, and money, to fix it up. It needed a battery and a solenoid, as the only way to start it was to jump the posts of the solenoid that was originally on it. I installed a new battery and new solenoid, and she started fine. I ran her a bit, turned her off, and repeated the process a few times (starting and stopping). After running her around the farm I left her in the garage, and the next morning again she would not start or do anything more than make a slight clicking noise when I turned the key. She would still start when I jumped the solenoid however. So I pulled out an electrical diagram, and found that the previous owner had made a huge mess of the wiring, so I rewired the majority of it (bypassing all safety switches...dangerous I know, but much easier). After rewiring it still wouldn't start unless the posts were jumped, so I assumed that the faulty wiring had fried the new solenoid, so I went and got another one and installed it today.

After installing the new solenoid she started right up, so I thought the problem was fixed. I started and turned her off a few times, then hooked up my tiller and got some ground tilled. I then parked her, and went inside to eat dinner. After dinner I went to finish up the tilling, and the same problem. Nothing when I turned the key, but she would start after jumping the posts.

So, any ideas? It's probably something simple that I'm just overlooking, but I'm stumped. I don't know much about electrical systems, but I'm slowly learning. But the electrical system of this wonderful machine doesn't seem that complicated, so I'm not sure what I'm screwing up. Any advice/ideas/suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[HorseFixer 2,013]

Is PTO clutch disengaged? Make sure auto is disengaged also. Give that a shot. ~Duke

[forphase1 5]

PTO is disengaged, and it's in 'neutral' so far as I can tell. Plus I think I bypassed all those safety precautions when I rewired her.

[HorseFixer 2,013]

Is your solenoid grounded good? What kind of voltage reading are you getting to the coil contacts of the solenoid when you turn the key? Your going to need a volt meter and maybe some alligator test leads to jump around switches and a wiring diagram and test every connection, maybe an extra set of hands. <_< If you don't know much about electricity its gonna be a crap shoot :thumbs:

[squonk 43,894]

I had almost the same problem on my C-160. I bought it from a friend and it started for him every time. As we were unloading it it wouldn't start, just a click. I had him keep trying it as I looked around and I finally saw a tiny spark at the positive cable from the battery at the solenoid. Where the wires are crimped on the terminal I saw the wires were corroded. I got some pliers and tightened the crimp and that solved the problem. I have since replace the cable.

[dgoyette 12]

Could be the ignition switch, if it is worn it may not be making the correct contacts to start every time. I would test the switch.

[boovuc 1,090]

I agree with Darren on the switch being a good place to start. Before starting with the Volt/Ohm Meter, simpley remove, (one by one), each connector on that switch with your battery disconnected and give each end a little sanding. Do it to every contact on the switch then hook the battery back up and try it. Also pull every in-line fuse and sand the connectors. Check the ground coming off the battery. Make sure you have no corrosion where it meets the frame. You can even add an extra wire off the battery and choose a new place to ground. Any molex connectors, the battery terminals themselves, etc. It sounds like you have a poor connection adding to the problem.

You'll find it!

Good Luck!

BooVuc

Mill hall, PA

[rmaynard 16,341]

I don't think it is the switch. The solenoid is clicking when he turns the ignition switch, so that would rule it out.

Is the solenoid that you installed a direct replacement OEM or is it a cheaper brand? I have seen problems with imported solenoids not having the amperage rating needed to keep from burning the internal contacts. A few times starting they are okay, but the contact will carbonize and not make contact if they arc too much.

[forphase1 5]

Thanks for all the great advise. I'll check a few connections again when I get home, starting with the ground.

As to the ignition switch, it's new. The old one was falling apart, so I replaced it. The solenoid is from NAPA, and it was one that was recommended on another thread here on RedSquare, which is why I went with it in the first place. Would ya'll recommend using something other than the NAPA part? Also, I've got a volt meter, but I'm still in the beginning stages of learning how to use it properly.

[WheelHorseSteve 56]

Did you have any luck figuring this one out? I have the exact same symptom with the Kawasaki on my Scag... Just a click. After jiggling wires and waiting for awhile and several more attempts it finally starts. Very annoying! :thumbs:

[rmaynard 16,341]

When I had the same problem on a B-100 (same setup as C-160), I took a battery jumper cable and went directly from the solenoid output side to the starter terminal. It started every time. I found that I had a bad internal connection where the ring terminal was crimped to the cable. I replaced the cable and problem ceased.

The starter circuit is simple. The solenoid uses it's own case as ground (-) and the small terminal as positive (+). This circuit is only activated when you turn the key switch. It does however go through both the PTO and CLUTCH safety switches enroute to the solenoid. The circuit is activated only long enough (by you turning the key) for the internal electromagnetic coil to pull the plunger to make the two large contacts connect. The one 5/16" lug is connected via 4 gauge cable to the (+) side of the battery, and the other to the starter. The circuit is completed through the starter which is grounded through it own case, which is connected to the engine block, which is connected to the frame, which is connected to the (-) side of the battery. As long as you have a complete circuit, starter will turn. Very important to check and clean ALL ground contact points

So if anything in that circuit fails, then there is no power to the starter.

Here is a simple diagram of the starter circuit:

[JimD 3,347]

Shouldn't the wire from the switch to the solenoid also pass through the seat switch? :thumbs:

[rmaynard 16,341]

I don't know if the 1975 C-160 had a seat switch, but to the best of my knowledge, if it did, it would only act as a dead-man switch and prevent power to the coil when starting, and kill the engine if the rider were to leave the seat. I don't believe it was in the solenoid circuit.

However, if TT is around, he will correct me if I am wrong.

However, forphase1 stated that the solenoid is clicking when he turns the key, indicating power to the solenoid.

[Save Old Iron 1,571]

Well done so far ...

but don't make the assumption that a click means the solenoid STAYS ACTIVATED

The plunger may be engaging then dropping out due to lack of sufficient holding current in the circuit.

If only we had a way to measure the current thru the solenoid to ignition switch circuit. Probably somewhere around 1/4 amp.

C'mon, SOI University grads, you guys can do this.

[JimD 3,347]

Bob, I believe you are right about the seat switch, my 1974 B-80 doesn't have one, nor does my 1977 B-60.

[TT-(Moderator) 1,162]

The operator presence (seat) switch works in conjunction with the PTO position switch and kills the ignition only when the PTO is engaged and the operator leaves the seat. It has absolutely nothing to do with the starter circuit.

The starter circuit safety interlock consists of the clutch (and/or neutral) switch(es) and the PTO lever position switch.

The only common connection (pun intended) between the two circuits is the use of one momentary DPST switch at the PTO lever on certain older models. Most newer tractors used two separate "piggy-backed" micro switches.

@JimD

I never really thought about the B-60, but it would be tough to have electrically-controlled safety interlock systems on a tractor that has no "conventional" electrical system.

Now I'll have to investigate. :thumbs:

[smoreau 658]

:thumbs: Start with all your connections and grounds. if one isn't good you will have a problem. Good luck :thumbs:

[squonk 43,894]

Well done so far ...

but don't make the assumption that a click means the solenoid STAYS ACTIVATED

The plunger may be engaging then dropping out due to lack of sufficient holding current in the circuit.

If only we had a way to measure the current thru the solenoid to ignition switch circuit. Probably somewhere around 1/4 amp.

C'mon, SOI University grads, you guys can do this.

I just went out to my C-160 with my trusty Craftsman DC clamp meter and got between 1.5 and 1.8 amps through the wire from the switch to the solenoid. Then the tractor started with no throttle or choke! :thumbs:

[forphase1 5]

Awesome information folks, I'm still working on checking my various connections and learning to use my Multimeter. One question though, if the engine will start when I jump the two posts of the solenoid, then doesn't that lead to thinking the problem is in the solenoid? If it was a ground issues or if it was a lose wire somewhere, I don't think that jumping the two solenoid posts would work to start the engine. But I'm still learning, and could be wrong. :thumbs:

[squonk 43,894]

Awesome information folks, I'm still working on checking my various connections and learning to use my Multimeter. One question though, if the engine will start when I jump the two posts of the solenoid, then doesn't that lead to thinking the problem is in the solenoid? If it was a ground issues or if it was a lose wire somewhere, I don't think that jumping the two solenoid posts would work to start the engine. But I'm still learning, and could be wrong.

If the power coming to the solenoid is not sufficient from the switch the solenoid could still be good. Just not enough juice to hold the solenoid in. Also jumping the solenoid could be disturbing the wire connections to make them work. I just barely touched the positive cable from the batt at the solenoid and it started working.

[rmaynard 16,341]

Let take this one step at a time.

First. jumping the solenoid from input stud to output stud is the same as taking it completely out of the equation. So if you are jumping stud to stud and it starts, that would indicate a bad solenoid.

However, if you jump stud to stud and it still doesn't start, but jumping input stud to starter stud does work, that would indicate a bad cable. In that case replace the cable.

But if it is the former, solenoid stud to stud, that means that something inside the solenoid is not working. The fact that when you try to start it using the solenoid, and it clicks but doesn't provide power to the output stud, the coil is either not pulling the contact plunger all the way closed to complete the circuit, or is it closing but burnt contacts are preventing it from making contact.

If that's the case, I would take the solenoid back to NAPA and have them either replace it with a higher amperage capacity one, or get your money back and buy the OEM one from a Toro dealer.

I hope that was not to confusing.

Good luck!

[forphase1 5]

Awesome! Thanks for the info. I'm afraid that the solenoid from Napa simply can't handle the amount of power. I'll get an OEM one and see if it can handle it. As you said rmaynard, it starts right up when I bypass the solenoid by touching the positive battery connection post on the solenoid to the post where the starter is connnected on the solenoid.

Also, and it just hit me, I bought a new battery this spring...I got the one that the little computer system @ Walmart recommended for a Wheel Horse C-160. Is it possible that they sold me a larger battery that necessary, and that's why it's 'blowing' the Napa solenoids? The battery is an Everstart 51R-4.

[TT-(Moderator) 1,162]

I can't believe the NAPA solenoid would be that "weak".

Have you actually tried a jumper wire between the battery positive terminal (or the battery side of the solenoid) and the small "trigger" post on the solenoid?

[forphase1 5]

Good call TT. I tried that and it started right up. So to summarize, when I turn the key to 'start' all I hear are clicks. However, I can get the engine to start whenever I either jump from positive solenoid post to the starter solenoid post OR from the positive solenoid post to the 'trigger/ignition' post on the solenoid. Now just what that means, I'm not sure. I imagine that enough juice isn't getting to the solenoid from the ignition switch. I think I'll try replacing the wiring between the ignition switch and the 'trigger' post on the solenoid...maybe there is a short in that wire that I can't see. Again, the ignition switch itself is only a few months old, so I doubt it's the problem, but I guess it could be.

I really, really appreciate the help. This is a wonderful machine, and I'm learning a ton. :thumbs:

[squonk 43,894]

On my C-160 there is a wire connector between the switch and the little terminal on the solenoid. In other words, it's not one continuous wire form the switch to solenoid. I don't know if it's factory but if it is and yours has one, the problem might be right there. I can't believe a new solenoid would be bad. Even the cheapie solenoids can handle the amps that that starter will draw. I worked at a Napa for 10 years and sold hundreds of them. Whenever someone thought they had a bad one I would test them. We built a special tester for all of that stuff. We did it not because we didn't want to warranty anything, we did it to prove the part was good and to help people find their problem. Countless people came back and thanked us for our help. I'm still stopped quite often by my old customers who wish I was still there. I still get calls. By the way, I can give you a part # of a solenoid that will bolt right on, handle 600 amps continuously, and run about $80.00 :thumbs: