Starter question???

[Shuboxlover 481]

Summary.....New to me C-160....got it running, but starter gear was "clinking" against the flywheel while it was running. Took the starter off and apart, lubed the shaft that the gear spins on, and put it back together. The gear spins nicely on the shaft. Doesn't seem to rub but is closer than a gnats @ss, I am afraid that when I hit a bump of something, it is gonna start clinking again, and the gear and flywheel are already showing signs of wear.

The thing that really puzzles me is that I can push on the nut at the end of the starter shaft and the entire shaft moves in about 1/4", but when I stop pushing on the shaft, it pops back out to where it is SOOOOOOO close the flywheel. Is there supposed to be an e-clip or something inside the starter housing that prevents the shaft from being pushed out as a result of the brush springs?

please help, I am soooo close to getting to drive this thing and blow some snow I can taste it!!!!!!!

[TT-(Moderator) 1,162]

The armature should not have that much end play.

Did you try to start the engine? Does the starter actually work?

There are several different starters for these engines and I don't know if it's possible to have the wrong armature (too short) but it's a possibility.

Did you see any obvious issues when the starter was apart? (bad bushings, etc.)

[Shuboxlover 481]

Yes, the starter seems to work fine, other than being so close to the flywheel. When I had it apart, it seemed to be in fairly good shape, the brushes were clean, and the inside was also fairly clean....I'll run out and take some picks of it....

[Shuboxlover 481]

here is a pic of the starter in the relaxed position....

Attached Image (Click thumbnail to expand)

[Shuboxlover 481]

here is a pic of the starter when I push the shaft in....when I let go it returns to the "relaxed" position shown in the previous picture.

Attached Image (Click thumbnail to expand)

[TT-(Moderator) 1,162]

The springs under the brushes are what keeps pushing the armature back out.

Do you have (or can you get) a picture of the starter removed from the engine?

[Shuboxlover 481]

I'll do it in about an hour or so....after a t-bone, baked potato, salad, and a frosty beverage....providing I can still bend over :WRS:

[Duff 206]

TT, do you suppose there might be some kind of thrust washer inside the starter that may have worn out? I'm just thinking that given the nature of the beast is to push a gear into the flywheel against a return spring there might be some type of washer or bearing on the armature to compensate for that motion over the life cycle of the unit.

Duff :thumbs:

[TT-(Moderator) 1,162]

There's usually a flanged "nose" bushing in the old (wound fields) starters and some of the permanent magnet starters have a thin thrust washer under the end cap, but I've never seen one move in & out as far as the one up yonder - unless it was totally shot.

I want to see a picture of the starter so I know which type it is. There's one version that can be assembled with the drive end cap upside-down which could possibly cause the in/out movement.

I was also thinking about the "bendix" or starter drive clutch portion not being fully seated but that would only apply to certain starters with the milled flats on opposite sides of the shaft. (more popular on B&S starters) This one appears to have the old-school helix shaft.

Guess I'll just wait for the pictures. :thumbs:

[Shuboxlover 481]

first of twp pics of the starter,

Attached Image (Click thumbnail to expand)

[Shuboxlover 481]

second pic....let me know if you need a different one

Thanks guys...REALLY appreciate your help

Attached Image (Click thumbnail to expand)

[TT-(Moderator) 1,162]

I had a post up here but retracted it pending this test.....

Pull the starter apart again and try flipping all of the internals "end for end" in the housing.

Once you get it back together, see if the shaft is still trying to push itself out.

[Duff 206]

I had a post up here but retracted it

Whew! I thought I was losin' it when it disappeared! Gettin' old gets scary sometimes.....

Duff :thumbs:

[Shuboxlover 481]

not questioning your logic, but would that mean that the starter would be "upside down" (at least compared to the way it was when I bought it)? :banghead:

[TT-(Moderator) 1,162]

not questioning your logic, but would that mean that the starter would be "upside down"

That would mean it's either a small block (6.25 / 7 / 8 hp) starter or it's a low-mount starter for a big block.

Certain applications and engines with the fuel tank mounted on that side had a starter that bolted in the same holes on the block - it just hung down below the bolt holes instead of mounting above them.

[Shuboxlover 481]

Well...........I went out and looked at my starter, looked at my engine, looked at my starter, looked at my engine, held the starter up there normally, held the starter up there "upside down", looked at everything 5 times again, and came to this conclusion......

If I take the guts out and flip them around, the starter will not bolt back up to the block. There IS a half moon cutout (I believe in the bearing plate?) directly behind the flywheel to allow a starter to be bolted either above or below the mounting holes. But the problem comes when you try and bolt the housing on the block. The bracket that is welded (looks to be a factory weld) onto the starter housing is not on the tangent line with respect to the starter housing, so it can't be bolted up flush with the block in the "upside down" configuration, it would be all cock-eyed....

now what :thumbs:

[TT-(Moderator) 1,162]

OK......

Sometimes it's tough to positively identify things from looking at a picture on a computer monitor, and I was just trying all of the options without seeing the starter in person.

The starter motor has definitely been replaced but the drive gear doesn't quite look right. It should sit closer to the end cap - but it might be because something isn't right inside the starter. There are also many different starter drives that were used on the different starters, and people have been known to piece things together to make them work.

Maybe the "new" starter had the wrong gear (too many teeth on the gear and it didn't mesh with the flywheel ring gear) and the drive from the old starter was installed.

I wasn't going to make the trek out across the ice to the shop last night but I'll see if I can get there today in the light. :thumbs:

[Shuboxlover 481]

Thanks Terry...please let me know what you find out.

i REALLY appreciate your help :WRS:

[Don1977 605]

Here is the same starter, it has about 1/16 end play that has spring tension that keep it pushed out. It does have the helix shaft to advance the gear.

This starter was on a 12 HP Kolher.

[Shuboxlover 481]

BOY mine is WAAAAAAAAYYY farther out than yours.

Thanks for the pics Don1977

[buckrancher 2,694]

The springs under the brushes are what keeps pushing the armature back out.

Do you have (or can you get) a picture of the starter removed from the engine?

Aren't The brushes 90 degree's to the armature shaft they should not be pushing lengh wise on the shaft :thumbs:

[TT-(Moderator) 1,162]

Aren't The brushes 90 degree's to the armature shaft they should not be pushing lengh wise on the shaft

It depends on the starter. (look at figure 8-24 on page 8.20 in the TP-2379 manual)

I told him that before I saw what starter he had.

Regardless of which style brushes and armature, it should not move in and out like that when assembled.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Not knowing what someone could have done with that starter in the past, it's probably best to find another complete working starter and install it.

The only other thing worth trying would be to put a spacer or washer (or two) on the shaft just before installing the end cap. :banghead:

[Shuboxlover 481]

So what should I do now guys???

Would pics of the inside of the starter help?

If I put spacer washers between the end-cap and housing, are there issues with it not being sealed completely?

I don't really want to spend a ton of money, but I obviously don't want to buy a new flywheel either :thumbs:

[buckrancher 2,694]

Aren't The brushes 90 degree's to the armature shaft they should not be pushing lengh wise on the shaft

It depends on the starter. (look at figure 8-24 on page 8.20 in the TP-2379 manual)

I told him that before I saw what starter he had.

Regardless of which style brushes and armature, it should not move in and out like that when assembled.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Not knowing what someone could have done with that starter in the past, it's probably best to find another complete working starter and install it.

The only other thing worth trying would be to put a spacer or washer (or two) on the shaft just before installing the end cap.

Yes I agree with TT the armature shaft should only move in and out a small amount maybe around (.010-.025)

[Shuboxlover 481]

Is there a "keeper" then that may be missing that doesn't allow the shaft much forward movement?