Cussed her up one side and down the other!

[CD Long Jr 186]

Installed new coil, condenser & seat bracket. She fired right up and ran about 20 minutes again, then died. When I attempted to restart her right away, I have no spark? I use a timer to steep my tea. Now I need one to operate the tractor. 30 minutes later, she cranks but won't start. The seat switch light is on & the engine oil light is blinking. Oil level is good. 

Edited 20 hours ago by CD Long Jr

[kpinnc 17,016]

53 minutes ago, CD Long Jr said:

The seat switch light is on & the engine oil light is blinking. Oil level is good.

 

I can't be 100% certain, but that same oil light setup on a Kohler powered machine grounds out the ignition. This obviously will save the engine should the oil run low. 

 

But, I had one tractor that used that system and the oil sensor was going bad. It wouldn't start until it was replaced (or in my case, removed). It was a simple interlock circuit from the coil that was normally open to ground unless the oil was low. 

 

Also, the seat switch had to be closed if the PTO was engaged and the clutch pedal had to be depressed to allow it to crank. On the hydro models the left pedal may have to be depressed as well. 

[CD Long Jr 186]

1 minute ago, kpinnc said:

 

I can't be 100% certain, but that same oil light setup on a Kohler powered machine grounds out the ignition. This obviously will save the engine should the oil run low. 

 

But, I had one tractor that used that system and the oil sensor was going bad. It wouldn't start until it was replaced (or in my case, removed). It was a simple interlock circuit from the coil that was normally open to ground unless the oil was low. 

 

Also, the seat switch had to be closed if the PTO was engaged and the clutch pedal had to be depressed to allow it to crank. On the hydro models the left pedal may have to be depressed as well. 

So I need to remove a wire from the coil? Which color.? New switches are $200 & up. OUCH!

[kpinnc 17,016]

8 minutes ago, CD Long Jr said:

So I need to remove a wire from the coil? Which color.? New switches are $200 & up. OUCH!

 

I can't tell you that for sure. But it may be a good place to look. At the same time, if your sensor is a pressure switch then it would be activated when the engine isn't running. In other words while the keyswitch is in the run or first detent while the engine isn't running that may be the correct thing to see. Same with the seat switch. You'll have to study the wiring diagram and figure that out. 

 

Sadly you are experiencing what many of us have dealt with when we acquired a machine that has sat for a while: the electrical system needs checking over with the diagram in the manual. The truth is that the electrical system caused more of these tractors to sit unused than anything else. Most people wouldn't take the time to properly troubleshoot and repair minor issues. So they parked the tractor and eventually sold it. 

 

I'm sure your issue is likely a simple fix.  But it may take time to figure it out. I'm leaning toward the ignition coil itself or something that affects it electrically. 

Edited 19 hours ago by kpinnc

[CD Long Jr 186]

5 minutes ago, kpinnc said:

 

I can't tell you that for sure. But it may be a good place to look. At the same time, if your sensor is a pressure switch then it would be activated when the engine isn't running. In other words while the keyswitch is in the run or first detent while the engine isn't running that may be the correct thing to see. Same with the seat switch. You'll have to study the wiring diagram and figure that out. 

 

Sadly you are experiencing what many of us have dealt with when we acquired a machine that has sat for a while: the electrical system needs checking over with the diagram in the manual. The truth is that the electrical system caused more of these tractors to sit unused than anything else. Most people wouldn't take the time to properly troubleshoot and repair minor issues. So they parked the tractor and eventually sold it. 

 

I'm sure your issue is likely a simple fix.  But it may take time to figure it out. I'm leaning toward the ignition coil itself or something that affects it electrically. 

She did start back up and ran for 15 minutes, then started missing so I shut her down. There was a blue jumper wire with the new coil. I didn't remove a blue jumper wire when I removed the old coil?

[kpinnc 17,016]

4 minutes ago, CD Long Jr said:

She did start back up and ran for 15 minutes, then started missing so I shut her down. There was a blue jumper wire with the new coil. I didn't remove a blue jumper wire when I removed the old coil?

 

Sounds like the ignition module getting hot and opening, but I'm only guessing from a distance. 

 

Don't let it frustrate you too much. We've all been through similar things with a newly acquired machine. I'm sure you'll figure it out. If you're anything like me, you may laugh at how simple it was once you find it. 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,980]

Oil lamps always flash when activated (engine not running - low oil pressure or faulty switch for some or a low oil level condition on Kohler single cylinder models.)

Some models the oil pressure switch controls the hour meter. Saves adding hours if the key gets left on.

The seat lamp on indicates no operator in the seat with the pto engaged or a faulty seat switch or connection. This affects the ignition.

 

Adding - I do not know what happens if the hour meter fails as the oil pressure switch provides a ground for the meter.

[CD Long Jr 186]

23 minutes ago, kpinnc said:

 

I can't tell you that for sure. But it may be a good place to look. At the same time, if your sensor is a pressure switch then it would be activated when the engine isn't running. In other words while the keyswitch is in the run or first detent while the engine isn't running that may be the correct thing to see. Same with the seat switch. You'll have to study the wiring diagram and figure that out. 

 

Sadly you are experiencing what many of us have dealt with when we acquired a machine that has sat for a while: the electrical system needs checking over with the diagram in the manual. The truth is that the electrical system caused more of these tractors to sit unused than anything else. Most people wouldn't take the time to properly troubleshoot and repair minor issues. So they parked the tractor and eventually sold it. 

 

I'm sure your issue is likely a simple fix.  But it may take time to figure it out. I'm leaning toward the ignition coil itself or something that affects it electrically. 

Coil and condenser are new.

[CD Long Jr 186]

9 minutes ago, kpinnc said:

 

Sounds like the ignition module getting hot and opening, but I'm only guessing from a distance. 

 

Don't let it frustrate you too much. We've all been through similar things with a newly acquired machine. I'm sure you'll figure it out. If you're anything like me, you may laugh at how simple it was once you find it. 

I'm not much on wiring diagrams, but the Onan P216 wiring shows 2 wires to the negative(?) side of the coil. I have 3? Black wire is the condenser. Wire on the right is red.

Edited 19 hours ago by CD Long Jr

[CD Long Jr 186]

So how do I know it's the ignition module before I order one, (I hate throwing parts at anything to try to fix it) and follow this post: Onan P-Series Ignition Module Replacement [Photos] - Engines - RedSquare Wheel Horse Forum

[kpinnc 17,016]

4 minutes ago, CD Long Jr said:

So how do I know it's the ignition module before I order one,

 

In all honesty someone else may have to answer that one. When I had several Onans I had a couple for parts so I had plenty to try as replacements. 

 

That being said if you've replaced everything else, and still loose spark afyer the engine warms up, it points pretty hard to the module itself. But that's just an opinion. 

[CD Long Jr 186]

15 minutes ago, kpinnc said:

 

In all honesty someone else may have to answer that one. When I had several Onans I had a couple for parts so I had plenty to try as replacements. 

 

That being said if you've replaced everything else, and still loose spark afyer the engine warms up, it points pretty hard to the module itself. But that's just an opinion. 

I was afraid of that. If you geta second on that verdict, I'll order one, but it's gonna hurt. Half what the tractor cost me. 

 

[lynnmor 8,547]

Download the Demystification Guide.  Also download the Onan Service Manual.

 

The oil pressure switch provides a ground for the oil light when there is no pressure then it provides a ground for the hour meter when there is pressure. There is no low oil pressure ignition cutoff.   If you have a seat light while sitting in the seat check that switch and related wiring.   Page 8-1 in the Onan Service will help you determine the ignition problem.

 

 

 

 

[lynnmor 8,547]

13 minutes ago, CD Long Jr said:

I was afraid of that. If you geta second on that verdict, I'll order one, but it's gonna hurt. Half what the tractor cost me. 

 

It may well be the ignition module but we talked about that before you bought a new coil.

[CD Long Jr 186]

40 minutes ago, lynnmor said:

It may well be the ignition module but we talked about that before you bought a new coil.

Yes we did. The coil was the lesser of two evils. I'm still trying to find out what the yellow wire on the coil goes to. 

The ignition coil on a Wheel Horse 416H (typically equipped with an Onan engine) uses two primary low-voltage wires, one connected to the positive (+) terminal and one to the negative (-) terminal, along with high-tension spark plug cables. 

• Positive (+) Terminal: Receives 12-volt power from the ignition switch.
• Negative (-) Terminal: Connects to the breaker points or electronic ignition module.
• High-Tension Cables: The coil tower connects to the spark plugs. 

Some configurations may use a condenser wired to the negative terminal. 

 

[CD Long Jr 186]

20 minutes ago, CD Long Jr said:

Yes we did. The coil was the lesser of two evils. I'm still trying to find out what the yellow wire on the coil goes to. Found it, yellow wire goes to the seat relay.

The ignition coil on a Wheel Horse 416H (typically equipped with an Onan engine) uses two primary low-voltage wires, one connected to the positive (+) terminal and one to the negative (-) terminal, along with high-tension spark plug cables. 

• Positive (+) Terminal: Receives 12-volt power from the ignition switch.
• Negative (-) Terminal: Connects to the breaker points or electronic ignition module.
• High-Tension Cables: The coil tower connects to the spark plugs. 

Some configurations may use a condenser wired to the negative terminal. 

 

 

Edited 17 hours ago by CD Long Jr

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,980]

Do you know the tractor model and serial number or the model year? Want to look at the correct wiring diagram.

[rmaynard 16,839]

My guess is that it's NOT the ignition module. In my limited experience with Onan ignition modules, it either works or doesn't. I've never seen one that is intermittent. 

 

As Garry said, please provide model number, year, and serial number if possible.

Edited 14 hours ago by rmaynard

[WHX?? 54,514]

Yes get us the correct model & SN. Garry has some really nice color coded wiring diagrams. 

[CD Long Jr 186]

11 hours ago, gwest_ca said:

Do you know the tractor model and serial number or the model year? Want to look at the correct wiring diagram.

 

Yes we did. The coil was the lesser of two evils. I'm still trying to find out what the yellow wire on the coil goes to. Found it, yellow wire goes to the seat relay.

The ignition coil on a Wheel Horse 416H  (typically equipped with an Onan engine)  

1982.

Edited 4 hours ago by CD Long Jr

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,980]

Download this file. In it is simple wiring diagrams for each major circuit including the ignition. Makes it much easier to understand.

The yellow wire is powered by two different sources. With the pto on the yellow wire is powered by the seat switch. With the pto off one half of the pto switch powers the yellow wire.

The wire colors on the engine side of the 9-pin connector may not be correct. They were supplied by Onan.

 

[CD Long Jr 186]

Thank you. I found file this yesterday. That's how I found out the yellow wire was to the seat switch.