This Old Horse....

[daleraby 0]

Just acquired My first Wheel Horse. It... ah... uh... has a few problems.

Pacasa Wheel Horse Album

I'm hoping that this method will allow images to be viewed as I do not own a Photobucket account and RedSquare won't allow downloads from Pacasa/Google for some reason.

(Edit: I added your pictures...LH)

The tractor began life... as near as I can tell... as a model 604 or 704. The primary difference seems to be the engine used. As the original engine has been replaced by a Briggs & Stratton of indeterminate HP rating, the point is moot anyway.

When I first saw the little filly, she was sitting in a tent garage next to a Model A Ford and in front of an old Craftsman garden tractor. We pushed her out into the yard so as to get a better look. She had a square cut in her hood to allow for the Briggs engine, and there was some hastily applied paint in various locations. After looking over the exhaust arrangements, I figured out why. The paint would never survive exhaust temperatures.

The cable-lift hitch was welded with metal rods fastened to the rear axle by means of some home-made clamps in a high position topped with a ball. The owner explained that the hitch used to be lifted by a cable attached to the operating rod. I didn't ask why it had been modified like that. I am a blacksmith. This could be fixed.

She started without just too much difficulty, considering she was a pull-start on a damp morning. I tested the four gears... finding that the "clutch" was not completely disengaging the engine as the main drive belt was necessarily a non-standard one. "Shift into gear fast", said the owner. This inelegant method did work, sort of, with a little gear-grinding, but she took off when I slipped the clutch pedal. After a short test drive, I shut her down and dismounted.

She looked kinda forlorn there, all cut up with non-standard impants, but the price being asked was within my budget constraints. Of course one never pays the asking price, so after a little "horse trading", I loaded her into my E-250 and we headed home.

After unloading her, I checked the oil and commenced to exercise her on a patch of lawn that needed a little work. Fifteen minutes of three-quarter throttle work was sufficient to bubble the paint on the hood where the exhaust hit the metal and to deposit quite a bit of oil on the frame rails. I don't know exactly where it came from, but I'm sure I'll find out.

She isn't much to look at right now, but, as I said, the price was right, so I should be able to set things right, in a manner of speaking. I don't know yet if the Briggs will stay or go. It started without much difficulty and seems to have plenty of compression, but it'll need an exhaust stack... which means more surgery on the hood.

The 704 was, according to my research, a Kohler K series engine no longer in production. I could possibly replace it with a newer model Kohler or maybe find a used/rebuilt one somewhere. I've also considered a diesel conversion or even an electric motor running on a battery through a voltage inverter.

Its a long Winter in Wisconsin, and I won't require the lady's services until Spring... or possibly mid-Summer. By then she should have had her transplant surgery if it is needed and will be up to the task of cultivating the garden.

Did I get "took"? Well, maybe, but I knew what I was getting into, and now I have a project for the Winter. The possibilities are mind-boggling.

[Sarge 3,470]

I'd just hunt up a better hood to work with and the Kohler shouldn't be too hard to find used . There really is quite a difference in power and usable torque between the two engines, those little round hoods can do an amazing amount of work . Be aware of grinding that trans , they typically lose 3rd gear and parts are almost non-existent .

Sarge

[daleraby 0]

Well, as the previous owner already supplied an un-modified hood, part of the job is already done. Finding the Kohler engine might be a little more "interesting". According to TractorData.com, the correct engine is a Kohler K161T. I haven't REALLY started looking yet, but as there are also different "spec numbers" for the engine, it may be a long search.

The Briggs is an industrial engine with a cast-iron sleeve, so it should last a while. Since I already have it and I can't do any more damage to the hood that's there, I will probably do the surgery and then start looking for a drive belt that will stay slack when it is supposed to. Someday I might do something different with it, but for now, it'll serve as is... if I can locate that oil leak and fix it.

:wq

[TJ 184]

It looks like they cut the friction tab off the end of the belt guard to accommodate the new motor. The friction tab is what stops the drive belt and allows for easy shifting.

Looks like a nice winter project. :scratchead:

[Rollerman 290]

Those are some serious "non standar implants"...LOL

The air cleaner on the hose is interesting....I supose the PO could drive underwater that way.

All kidding aside it's nothing that can't be fixed/repaired & if it's a project you will enjoy & can manage....you didn't get took then.

Parts for the 3 speed trans are getting harder to find through the dealers, but there still is a lot of them out there.

I would check to see that the drive belt is completly stoping when you depress the clutch pedal too.

A lot of times with swapped in engines things don't work like they should.

The belt guard will tell you if it was a 654 or 704, they had a different mount at the engine....now possibly cut off for that B&S?

The belt guad will have a finger that will ride the belt under slack to stop it while clutching allowing smooth shifting.

If the PO trimed the hood up that way I wouldn't be surprised if he redesigned the belt guard to fit that B&S.

"Edit...I see TJ beat me to the belt guard tab while typeing my long winded post"

The Kohler K161/181 engines are not that hard to find if you decide to go that option....(I would)

The other alternative would be a Tecumseh H60, HH60, HH70 engine.

Keep you eyes peeled here in the classifieds area for an engine, craigslist, & ebay.

[daleraby 0]

Thanks for all the useful information. This site is awesome!

This morning after church, I grabbed the resident teenager and went down to the old feed bunker where I parked the Wheel Horse overnight. We towed it back up to the house with the Dynamark... a terrible insult, I know. But I was unwilling to subject it to any further gear grinding.

The "friction tab" mentioned in the above posts is actually present, but it no longer contacts the drive belt. The guard does, in fact, drag on the belt above the pulley full time. This has the effect of keeping it always partially engaged. Looks like a screw is missing where it was once attached to the crankcase. Replacing that screw and/or bending the friction tab might cure the problem

I'll be looking it over this afternoon to see what's what, removing the mower, trying to locate the oil leak, maybe getting a better handle on just what kind of engine I have. Even if I decide not to use it on the tractor, I can still sell it or use it on another project.

[daleraby 0]

As can be seen, I have removed the air cleaner from its remote location and placed it back on the carb where it belongs. This had three immediate effects; (1) it started much easier and ran better, (2) it actually filtered the air, (3) it restored the engine's PCV system, thus eliminating the oil leak. As I understand the problem, pressure would build up in the crankcase from blow-by and force oil out the filler at the base of the crankcase. This kinda sucked in reverse (not so subtle pun intended).

Making these changes required removal of the butchered up hood... which in tern required removal of the steering wheel. Fortunately, this Spring I found a couple of pieces of unidentifiable chunks of rust on a farm where I sometimes work and keep my smithy. I placed them both in a bucket of waste oil where they spent the entire Summer. Miraculously, they turned into wheel pullers. Get a wheel puller if you need to remove wheels. As a blacksmith, I have the utmost respect for hammers... but they make poor tools for removal of wheels.

A test drive confirmed the elimination of the oil leak... but also demonstrated that the brakes which previously worked fine now did not work at all. A search of my route turned up a black rubber strip with some red paint on it... I would guess that this is the "brake lining". Contact cement is the preferred adhesive, I presume(?)

Future plans include cutting the broken hood into two sections, extending the grill forward far enough to give the B&S engine room for its air cleaner as well as space for exhaust to flow without burning the paint off. The hood/grill will eventually be secured by means of wrought iron struts to facilitate a removable center section that will incorporate "performance bubbles" where they are needed to allow for the B&S engine components.

When completed, I intend to designate this model the 804BS, as it has a eight HP engine, not a six or seven as it originally had when it was a 604 or 704, and, of course, the B&S engine, which it never had originally. The BS can certainly stand for another phrase.

[KB9LOR 4]

daleraby, where are you located? I have a Kohler k181s-30108d 8hp with the pulleys still on it, but it is gonna need a Carb and fuel pump, which is how I got it, it does turn free and is on my parts 877.

Brian

[Rollerman 290]

Have you looked into removeing the B&S muffler on your engine & replaceing it with another style to get the heat away from the hood?

Looks much better with the air filter where it's suposed to be.

Still curious what the PO was thinking when he set it up on the hose? :scratchead:

[daleraby 0]

I am located in Wisconsin, a few miles South of De Pere. I'm not planning on any engine swaps with this tractor, however. Even if I could get your engine for free, I'd still have shipping and the cost of the fuel pump and carburetor. This machine was butchered long before I got it. It also has other problems like a welded up wheel hub and who-knows-what with the transmission (with the previous owner telling me to "shift faster" in order to avoid grinding gears). So, its a learning tool and a garden work-horse for me, not a potential show machine. The B&S does seem to work fine, and as its an Industrial/Commercial engine with a cast-iron bore, it should last a while.

I have thought about fabricating a stack-type muffler, but there are other reasons to modify the hood. Extending the hood forward won't do any harm because its already been butchered and a performance bubble would only replace the portion of the hood that's already been cut out.

[KB9LOR 4]

Okay well was going to offer it to ya, but yeah it is a little up north of me, but am enjoying seeing the work you are putting into it, keep up the good work and keep them there pictures coming.

Brian

[daleraby 0]

Thanks for the offer. Perhaps your engine might find a more suitable home on another chassis.

[Don1977 605]

That deflector on the muffler can the turned down at an angle by just unscrewing it and using different holes to reattach.

[KB9LOR 4]

Thanks for the offer. Perhaps your engine might find a more suitable home on another chassis.

It just may find a new life, will hold on to it now, I may run into another Horse in need of an engine.

Brian

[oldandred 16]

you said the grears grind well they will with out a belt guard but with out the correct engine and pully set up yeper they will grind

[daleraby 0]

The belt guard is off now, but will be replaced soon. Pending that replacement, I use my right foot to brake the belt when shifting during my test drives. I'm fairly sure I can make the friction tab work, and if not, there are a few other ways to keep the driven pulley from turning when I don't want it to turn. This stuff does give me new respect for engineers, though.

[daleraby 0]

That deflector on the muffler can the turned down at an angle by just unscrewing it and using different holes to reattach.

Thanks, I didn't know that.

[daleraby 0]

As can be seen, I have solved the shifting problem caused by the new engine specs being somewhat out of spec... as near as I can tell, the original engine's shaft was mounted just a bit lower than the one on the B&S replacement.

The problem(s) I encountered were that the belt dragged on the top of the belt guard, even when under tension, and that no amount of bending of the friction tab would make the belt disengage from the pulley when the clutch pedal was depressed. Also, the original mounting point for the belt guard on the engine was in a different location than on the new engine.

Two mods were necessary; the mounting tab had to be bent slightly to accommodate the B&S mounting point, and the top of the guard needed to be cut back a bit to allow for the slightly higher angle of the belt. Exactly how much needed to be cut was problematical. I made a guess and then clamped the cut out piece in place. The friction tab also needed to be bent slightly from its original position, but in fact, the belt must drag on both the top of the belt guard as well as the friction tab when the clutch pedal is depressed in order to de-clutch properly.

This inelegant piece of butchery involving the use of a pair of needle-nosed ViseGrips is certainly ugly, but it is functional. The transmission can now be shifted as it is supposed to be shifted; by pushing the clutch/brake down and moving the shift lever. No need to hold the belt or driven pulley with one's foot. Now that the proper solution with correct dimensioning has been determined, I should be able to fabricate an adjustable guard extension and get my ViseGrips back in the tool box where they belong.

[captjake 1]

I'm glad to see you figured it out. To bad it got messed up in the first place. I think it would be easier to put a kohler on it, at the same time I like to see you working with what you got.

[ChevelleSSLS6 0]

As can be seen, I have removed the air cleaner from its remote location and placed it back on the carb where it belongs. This had three immediate effects; (1) it started much easier and ran better, (2) it actually filtered the air, (3) it restored the engine's PCV system, thus eliminating the oil leak. As I understand the problem, pressure would build up in the crankcase from blow-by and force oil out the filler at the base of the crankcase. This kinda sucked in reverse (not so subtle pun intended).

Making these changes required removal of the butchered up hood... which in tern required removal of the steering wheel. Fortunately, this Spring I found a couple of pieces of unidentifiable chunks of rust on a farm where I sometimes work and keep my smithy. I placed them both in a bucket of waste oil where they spent the entire Summer. Miraculously, they turned into wheel pullers. Get a wheel puller if you need to remove wheels. As a blacksmith, I have the utmost respect for hammers... but they make poor tools for removal of wheels.

A test drive confirmed the elimination of the oil leak... but also demonstrated that the brakes which previously worked fine now did not work at all. A search of my route turned up a black rubber strip with some red paint on it... I would guess that this is the "brake lining". Contact cement is the preferred adhesive, I presume(?)

Future plans include cutting the broken hood into two sections, extending the grill forward far enough to give the B&S engine room for its air cleaner as well as space for exhaust to flow without burning the paint off. The hood/grill will eventually be secured by means of wrought iron struts to facilitate a removable center section that will incorporate "performance bubbles" where they are needed to allow for the B&S engine components.

When completed, I intend to designate this model the 804BS, as it has a eight HP engine, not a six or seven as it originally had when it was a 604 or 704, and, of course, the B&S engine, which it never had originally. The BS can certainly stand for another phrase.

So long as the work is done right, it'd look awesome with a 'power bulge' and a stack (I'd run a stack to get exhaust heat out from under there, those mufflers throw off a lot of radiant heat, regardless of where the exhaust exit deflector is pointed. At least run a length of pipe out and away from the engine (and hood) a few inches to said muffler.

My 73 MTD 8hp briggs has a pipe like that, basically an extension pipe about 8 inches long with a flange at the end, dunno the part number. Muffler looks identical to yours, minus the deflector. It may be easier (and less expensive) than a stack.

[jsmay 0]

any progress... looking good.

[daleraby 0]

Well... some progress. The old girl seems to handle gardening pretty well, though I've run into a snag with lawn mowing.

Does anyone know how the bottom pulley pictured in my original post is retained on the shaft? Currently, there is nothing there to keep it from sliding off the shaft. The shaft has a ring groove cut into it near the end, but there is no clip, cotter pin, or washer. What was supposed to be there?

Also, anyone know where I can find the manual for properly mounting this mower deck? It seems to just hang there, but I can't believe there isn't supposed to be something to lock it into place.

Thanks,

Dale

[Wheel Horse Kid 105]

Looks like it should be a great tractor for you when you are all done!

[MrTrimmier 12]

Well... some progress. The old girl seems to handle gardening pretty well, though I've run into a snag with lawn mowing.

Does anyone know how the bottom pulley pictured in my original post is retained on the shaft? Currently, there is nothing there to keep it from sliding off the shaft. The shaft has a ring groove cut into it near the end, but there is no clip, cotter pin, or washer. What was supposed to be there?

Also, anyone know where I can find the manual for properly mounting this mower deck? It seems to just hang there, but I can't believe there isn't supposed to be something to lock it into place.

Thanks,

Dale

If memory serves there is supposed to be a snapring on the end of the shaft to keep the pulley from sliding off just in case and the mower deck did kinda hang there on the one we had way back when, though you can tension the spinning knob to keep the deck handle fullup....

My .02

Mike T

FOB Salerno Afghanistan.

BTW I'm looking for one like yours if you know anyone in the SouthEast!