K321 fitment - what gives?

[Bar Nuthin 1,376]

I was addressing an oil leak around the breather and adjusting the valves on Frankenhorse, today.

I looked down and noticed the right side of the engine hangs over the outside of the frame. Note; It's a '73 16-Auto with a newer K321S engine.

I'm not experienced with the different variations on K Series engines, so what gives here? And what are recommendations on the best resolution.

 

Edited yesterday at 12:36 AM by Bar Nuthin

[oliver2-44 10,940]

There's nothing wrong with it hanging over, that the factory design.  

Look under the frame angle on that side and you will see 2 bolts that go up into the bottom of the oil pan.

[sqrlgtr 868]

look up under frame and you will see the motor bolts that hold engine on that side perfectly normal. I dont know what all Wheel Horse tractors are this way but this series is for sure.

[sqrlgtr 868]

oily beat me to it 

[Bar Nuthin 1,376]

40 minutes ago, oliver2-44 said:

There's nothing wrong with it hanging over, that the factory design.  

Look under the frame angle on that side and you will see 2 bolts that go up into the bottom of the oil pan.

 

Thanks! I have enough issues to address on this thing already!

Never noticed it on my C-120 - but yep - same.

Edited yesterday at 01:23 AM by Bar Nuthin

[MainelyWheelhorse 1,983]

@Bar Nuthin My C-141, 312-8 and 308-8 are all like that too. The 312 is box stock factory, the 308 had a motor swap staying with an M8, in the factory location. The C as you know was built by me with the same engine as factory, and in factory spot, as advised on here and looking at the others.

[Bar Nuthin 1,376]

10 minutes ago, MainelyWheelhorse said:

@Bar Nuthin My C-141, 312-8 and 308-8 are all like that too. 

 

My recently acquired C-141 is mounted on a plate with rubber dampeners.

 

[oliver2-44 10,940]

1 hour ago, Bar Nuthin said:

 

My recently acquired C-141 is mounted on a plate with rubber dampeners.

 

Yes, the engine mounting design changed on the C1x1 models to the rubber shaker plate design. 

[MainelyWheelhorse 1,983]

1 hour ago, Bar Nuthin said:

 

My recently acquired C-141 is mounted on a plate with rubber dampeners.

 

Ok, that must be factory. The C-141 started off with that and the C-85 has it too. I took it off the C to simplify the engine mounting, especially if there was a problem during the motor install. I’m used to the 3/4/500 series and I didn’t notice any major vibration issues with it off so I left it. The later tractors don’t have that mount. It’s probably a cost cutting reason but there doesn’t seem to be major vibration on those either.

[Bar Nuthin 1,376]

42 minutes ago, MainelyWheelhorse said:

there doesn’t seem to be major vibration on those either

 

To be honest, the only difference I notice is the engine shaking around. In fact, it shook the muffler loose the other day - not that it was tight to begin with.

[ebinmaine 74,245]

5 hours ago, MainelyWheelhorse said:

Ok, that must be factory. The C-141 started off with that and the C-85 has it too. I took it off the C to simplify the engine mounting, especially if there was a problem during the motor install. I’m used to the 3/4/500 series and I didn’t notice any major vibration issues with it off so I left it. The later tractors don’t have that mount. It’s probably a cost cutting reason but there doesn’t seem to be major vibration on those either.

 

4 hours ago, Bar Nuthin said:

 

To be honest, the only difference I notice is the engine shaking around. In fact, it shook the muffler loose the other day - not that it was tight to begin with.

 

 

Those rubber mounts are WELL known to dry rot and disintegrate. 

 

Go to a solid metal type.  

[ri702bill 9,923]

49 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

 

 

 

Those rubber mounts are WELL known to dry rot and disintegrate. 

 

Go to a solid metal type.  

I added the solid mounts on my C81, as the entine engine / shaker plate would torque twist to the rear when I engaged the PTO. No movement at all now.

 

[Racinbob 12,175]

If a wobble mount it removed the engine needs to be mounted so the shaft is at the same height. Another consideration is the lower bracket for the PTO loop. It's part of the wobble mount. Maybe the easiest way is to install the solid mounts in place of the rubbers like Bill did. I modified the base on Dino.

 

 

If you choose to eliminate the entire mount and plan on using the PTO you'll need to come up with a way to support the bottom of the loop. There are several good ideas the guys have posted. If you're thinking just swap the oil pan, forget it. 

 

I don't think cost had much to do with the addition of the mount. Obviously it cost more. But the fact that it didn't last long before they went back to a direct bolt pretty much tells you that it was a bad idea. I've had a couple and they only made the engine shake worse. 

[953 nut 61,757]

10 hours ago, Bar Nuthin said:

10 hours ago, oliver2-44 said:

There's nothing wrong with it hanging over, that the factory design.  

Look under the frame angle on that side and you will see 2 bolts that go up into the bottom of the oil pan.

 

Thanks! I have enough issues to address on this thing already!

Never noticed it on my C-120 - but yep - same.

Here is a picture of the oil sump from the bottom. If a person were to buy a non-Wheel Horse engine without the holes for frame mounting a pair of "J" Bolts would do the trick.

[JoeM 8,731]

1 minute ago, 953 nut said:

frame mounting a pair of "J" Bolts would do the trick

I had one with the hooks. It had a replacement k (one of the dark green ones). it worked fine. 

[peter lena 9,402]

@Bar Nuthin  side engine picture , opportunity  to enhance / quiet down  the sloppy  PTO LEVER SET UP ? hitch pin clip  at bottom of  pto swing arm , see the hole at end of upper corner clip ?  add a  medium extension  spring , connect the 2 clips n no more noise , rattling . also a great time to remove the rattling  upper TRUNION on pto lever end adjustment area , thats a 3/8x 16 thread , get a 3/8x24  DIE NUT , rethread  right over those threads  screw on a  HEIM JOINT , , also like to pull off the , pto cone , clean out the inner needle bearing , like lucas green chassis grease  , very light  ammount ? excess flings to clutch face . very smooth / easy  improvement , you can also washer up  the start of the PTO LEVER ROD  , coming from battery tray area , makes for solid smooth  engagement  , gold mine for  simple improvements , pete

[pfrederi 18,878]

Or get 4 spacers some washers ...depending on the model/year you may have to drill two holes in the frame.  Short piece of angle iron with a a couple holes drilled in it makes the base for the PTO hoop....A lot cheaper than the fancy machined piece isolation replacement...

 

 

Edited yesterday at 12:38 PM by pfrederi

[Bar Nuthin 1,376]

30 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

.A lot cheaper than the fancy machined piece isolation replacement...

 

And eliminates a lot of the clutter and places to trap dirt and grime. Seems like the way to go.

[Pullstart 67,940]

2 hours ago, 953 nut said:

Here is a picture of the oil sump from the bottom. If a person were to buy a non-Wheel Horse engine without the holes for frame mounting a pair of "J" Bolts would do the trick.

 

I’ve used J bolts on a couple.  They work great!

 

https://www.wheelhorseforum.com/topic/109081-roadapples-legacy-raider-12-tiller-machine-for-my-brother-inlaw/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-1243978

 

[MainelyWheelhorse 1,983]

10 hours ago, Racinbob said:

I don't think cost had much to do with the addition of the mount. Obviously it cost more. But the fact that it didn't last long before they went back to a direct bolt pretty much tells you that it was a bad idea. I've had a couple and they only made the engine shake worse. 

That was my other thought about the mount. My 83 C-85 has it, by the time my 87 308-8 came around it was gone. I figured at least some of it was that Toro is a large company and some of the simplified design was cost cutting, simplifying to produce them faster and probably recouping costs after buying Wheel Horse in 86.

Edited 15 hours ago by MainelyWheelhorse