Tight steering on 416-8

[nylyon-(Admin) 7,841]

I have 2 almost identical tractors, 1995 416-8 and 1994 416-H.  They have identical tires and both with 42” RD decks.  The hydro steering is almost effortless, but the 8-speed takes some effort.  Tires are inflated to 12 lbs on both, on the 8-speed I jacked up the front, removed the spindles cleaned and regreased, greased the fan gear and sprayed lithium grease in the flange bearing. 

Gotta be missing something, the 8-speed has to turn better.  Thoughts / suggestions?

[ri702bill 9,185]

There is a shim pack on the lower steering shaft between the fan gear and the lower steering block. The shim pack thickness sets the tooth engagement depth. Perhaps it is setting the engagement deeper than the other?? One way to "see" the engagement is to coat 4 or 5 of the fan gear teeth with fresh grease and turn the wheel to run it thru to the other side. Do both tractors. Do the squished out grease patterns look the same?? One deeper than the other??

[nylyon-(Admin) 7,841]

1 minute ago, ri702bill said:

There is a shim pack on the lower steering shaft between the fan gear and the lower steering block. The shim pack thickness sets the tooth engagement depth. Perhaps it is setting the engagement deeper than the other?? One way to "see" the engagement is to coat 4 or 5 of the fan gear teeth with fresh grease and turn the wheel to run it thru to the other side. Do both tractors. Do the squished out grease patterns look the same?? One deeper than the other??

That is a good idea, I suspect to get to that area I need to take the dash apart, it’s really tight with the Onan in there.

[Ed Kennell 41,298]

I notice the same difference on my 300s.    The 312H is much easier to steer than the 310-8.

[ebinmaine 71,762]

4 minutes ago, nylyon said:

That is a good idea, I suspect to get to that area I need to take the dash apart, it’s really tight with the Onan in there.

 

That may be a bottom of the tractor reach

[Handy Don 13,663]

45 minutes ago, nylyon said:

That is a good idea, I suspect to get to that area I need to take the dash apart, it’s really tight with the Onan in there.

 

41 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

 

That may be a bottom of the tractor reach

Mostly something done from underneath but you may need to remove the battery to get at the locking collar on the upper steering shaft to let you lift that shaft a bit.

At the other end, loosen the steering shaft pivot block and slide it rearward. 

Having a lift or other safe to be under work stand makes this a LOT easier. 

[squonk 43,303]

When you get things apart maybe you'll find the upper steering shaft bearing is the issue instead of the lower linkage.

[rmaynard 16,175]

My 416-H steered fairly hard and aways felt like it was fighting me to stay straight. Then I checked and adjusted the toe-in. I found that a 1/8" toe-in can make all the difference. Just a thought.

[nylyon-(Admin) 7,841]

21 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

Having a lift or other safe to be under work stand makes this a LOT easier. 

 

My reputation precedes me

[nylyon-(Admin) 7,841]

14 minutes ago, squonk said:

When you get things apart maybe you'll find the upper steering shaft bearing is the issue instead of the lower linkage.

 

I did lubricate that

[nylyon-(Admin) 7,841]

1 minute ago, rmaynard said:

My 416-H steered fairly hard and aways felt like it was fighting me to stay straight. Then I checked and adjusted the toe-in. I found that a 1/8" toe-in can make all the difference. Just a thought.

 

This one seems to go straight, but will definitely check to see if I can adjust the toe a little.

[Lee1977 7,121]

If someone tighten to gears too mich It will make it steer hard,  1"  to 1 1/2" play steering is normal.  The hole that uppper bushing is in wears and the steering wheel can move around I install the 6472 flange bearing up there  

Typical problem with my 300's. A nother problem is 2 ply tires ,unless you have them pumped up untill they round up in the center, they will fold up if you run over anything bigger then a match stick.  Alinement and heims joints on the tie rods also helps with easer steering, 

Edited 18 hours ago by Lee1977

[Handy Don 13,663]

Our 312-H was a bear to steer. The smaller-statured operators in the family complained effectively so, to address the issue, we:

• thanked @ri702bill for milling the bottoms of the axles at the spindle holes to make them flat and shorten them to compensate for...
• spindle thrust bearing bearings like on the later 520’s
• while doing this we discovered that the arm on one of the spindles was bent so we re-aligned it
• then installed adjustable tie rods to tweak the toe-in
• checked and lubed all the steering mechanism (if there hadn’t already been a flange bearing at the forward end of the lower steering shaft, I’d have added one)

It now steers and tracks very nicely according to all users!

Edited yesterday at 03:10 PM by Handy Don

[ri702bill 9,185]

3 hours ago, nylyon said:

I found that a 1/8" toe-in can make all the difference. Just a thought.

Needs just a bit mo' toe......

[ri702bill 9,185]

7 hours ago, nylyon said:

but will definitely check to see if I can adjust the toe a little.

To digress a tad off topic, but as a former Front End Technician.. I will.

I saw a fantastic attempt to "correct" a severe toe-out condition on a NASCAR Racecar back in the day. Rusty Wallace was not only a good driver, but had excellent knowledge of the cars components and how each affected the overall handling.

It was at Martinsville VA, I recall. Rusty was running third late in the race when he got collected in an accident that severely toed the left front out about 4 to 5 inches as the steering was bent. He radioed the pit crew to stage a pitstop, but as he approached, they all jumped back behind the wall when he came in at speed, spanked the inner wall hard and drove back onto the track. He did so as to not loose his third position in the field!!! "We'll change the tires next lap - that left front has served its purpose".

His "adjustment" had re-bent the geometry back enough to make the car driveable to finish the race..... and not loose laps in the pits.

[Sparky-(Admin) 22,783]

16 minutes ago, ri702bill said:

To digress a tad off topic, but as a former Front End Technician.. I will.

I saw a fantastic attempt to "correct" a severe toe-out condition on a NASCAR Racecar back in the day. Rusty Wallace was not only a good driver, but had excellent knowledge of the cars components and how each affected the overall handling.

It was at Martinsville VA, I recall. Rusty was running third late in the race when he got collected in an accident that severely toed the left front out about 4 to 5 inches as the steering was bent. He radioed the pit crew to stage a pitstop, but as he approached, they all jumped back behind the wall when he came in at speed, spanked the inner wall hard and drove back onto the track. He did so as to not loose his third position in the field!!! "We'll change the tires next lap - that left front has served its purpose".

His "adjustment" had re-bent the geometry back enough to make the car driveable to finish the race..... and not loose laps in the pits.

 
  So youre suggesting Karl drive his 416-8 into a brick wall?? 
  

[Handy Don 13,663]

1 hour ago, Sparky said:

 So youre suggesting Karl drive his 416-8 into a brick wall?? 
  

Possibly suggesting that that tractor had been hit at some point in its life? @ri702bill surely recalls the bent arm on the tractor he worked on for us and who knows how that got there!

[ri702bill 9,185]

9 hours ago, Handy Don said:

Possibly suggesting that that tractor had been hit at some point in its life? @ri702bill surely recalls the bent arm on the tractor he worked on for us and who knows how that got there!

It was Don that found the bent arm & fixed that. He mentioned that the way it was it went straight OK, but turning the spindle rotated out at a different end angle than the other when turned in the opposite direction (not to be confused with the Ackerman Angle designed into the tractor steering that moves the inside wheel at a tighter radius than the outer one in a tight turn).

 

10 hours ago, Sparky said:

 So youre suggesting Karl drive his 416-8 into a brick wall?? 

Only if he calls Rusty first...