KT17 oil circulation

[Brockport Bill 1,926]

I am aware of the oil circulation issue in the KT 17 Series 1 that was re-engineered in the Series 2 - the issue apparently over the years is the belief most of the "problem" originates with operating the Series 1 on hills, thus reducing adequate circulation of the oil ---- My question is --------- is the circulation issue from driving up the hills in straight line over a long steep hill, or will any frequent operating up and down a short hill cause the same inadequate oil circulation issue???? Or --- can the oil circulation problem occur driving the tractor on a side of a hill for short or long distances - and if the poor circualtion can be caused operating driving sideways across a hill, would it be more serious issue if the engine was pto down slope, or up slope?

i am guessing these were not issues or factors actually scientifically studied by WH - however, i was wondering if those RSQ members familiar with internals of the S1 might know if perhaps the oil circulation issue was more of a risk in S1 when driven a particular direction on slopes/hills?

 

Thanks, Bill

[ri702bill 9,334]

Since the crankshaft & connecting rod dipper revolve perpendicular to the frame, I believe the issue is mowing sideways on a hill. The oil would slosh to the side, making the dipper a "sipper", then the broken rod opens up the block like a "zipper".... 

[953 nut 59,728]

3 hours ago, ri702bill said:

connecting rod dipper

      The KT-17 and subsequent horizontally opposed  twin cylinder engines have an oil pump and do not rely on splash lubrication.

[ri702bill 9,334]

7 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

      The KT-17 and subsequent horizontally opposed  twin cylinder engines have an oil pump and do not rely on splash lubrication.

So, unlike a K series or Tecky... my bad.. But.. my statement does hold true for those two...

 

[Ed Kennell 41,771]

17 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

      The KT-17 and subsequent horizontally opposed  twin cylinder engines have an oil pump and do not rely on splash lubrication.

 

So, the series 1 and 2 both have oil pumps?    So what is different?

[953 nut 59,728]

24 minutes ago, Ed Kennell said:

 

So, the series 1 and 2 both have oil pumps?    So what is different?

Though the series 1 has a pressurized lubrication system it was a lower pressure and drip lubrication to the rod bearings was inadequate if the engine was tilted where the oil didn't get to the rods.

 

[Ed Kennell 41,771]

Thanks for the pictures Richard.  I never knew the series 1 had an oil pump.     It is clear the series 2 pressurized bearing oil is better, but I don't see how the oil spray system on the series 1 would be less effective on a slope.      This is assuming the oil level is high enough to cover the pump, but this would be the same problem for the series 1 and 2.

[pfrederi 18,628]

If you tilt the engine maybe the spray/drip doesn't hit the seam/gap between the rod and the crank??

 

Depending on the spray/drip pattern it only hits at top and bottom of the stroke

 

 

Edited May 26 by pfrederi

[pfrederi 18,628]

Big difference in oil pressure may have an impact.

 

 

[WHX?? 51,688]

1 hour ago, Ed Kennell said:

  I never knew the series 1 had an oil pump. 

 

Any one know if other brands suffered this same malady? 

[pfrederi 18,628]

29 minutes ago, WHX?? said:

 

Any one know if other brands suffered this same malady? 

 

John Deere stopped using Kohlers after 317 series (KT-17 series 1)  went with Kawasaki and B&S

[Achto 29,348]

1 hour ago, WHX?? said:

 

Any one know if other brands suffered this same malady? 

 

@Brockport Bill The side hill, up & down hill issue depended on the orientation of the engine. In a  the crank shaft is perpendicular to the tractor. Up hill and down hill would tilt the engine to cause the issue. In a Scrub Cadet the crank shaft is in line with the tractor. Side hills would then tilt the engine to cause the issue.

 

With the series II having oil pressure fed to the rod bearing instead of relying on splash only, the issue was pretty much resolved. Problem was that the reputation damage was already done by the time that the series II came out. Many companies had already given up on Kohler's 2 cylinder and switched to different engine manufacturer for their 2 cylinder engine applications. Kohler made a great come back with the Magnum series, but again the reputation of the KT17 & KT19 held some tractor manufacturers back.

 

I have a Kohler M18 in my D160, one of the best and smoothest engines in my heard. 

[Brockport Bill 1,926]

9 minutes ago, Achto said:

 

@Brockport Bill The side hill, up & down hill issue depended on the orientation of the engine. In a  the crank shaft is perpendicular to the tractor. Up hill and down hill would tilt the engine to cause the issue. In a Scrub Cadet the crank shaft is in line with the tractor. Side hills would then tilt the engine to cause the issue.

 

With the series II having oil pressure fed to the rod bearing instead of relying on splash only, the issue was pretty much resolved. Problem was that the reputation damage was already done by the time that the series II came out. Many companies had already given up on Kohler's 2 cylinder and switched to different engine manufacturer for their 2 cylinder engine applications. Kohler made a great come back with the Magnum series, but again the reputation of the KT17 & KT19 held some tractor manufacturers back.

 

I have a Kohler M18 in my D160, one of the best and smoothest engines in my heard. 

good info - thanks  -- so your analysis is it's up and down a hill that would cause a "risk" of oil not being adequately circulated in a WH Series 1 ? --- I have read in prior statements from members that keeping oil "full" or even a little of over fill of oil can help prevent the "risk" -- if that is true, so based on your analysis would a higher oil level help prevent the loss of adequate oil circulation on a short hill??? Thanks

[8ntruck 7,771]

It has been said that keeping the oil level on a Series 1 at or slightly over the 'full' level will help the oiling on these engines.  However, I have not run across any hard data supporting this.

 

The Kohler recommendation is to operate the engine within 15 degrees of level.

 

Considering that the oil drips off of the cam shaft onto the crank, I'll  guess that in a Wheel Horse with the crank across the frame, going up hill and down hill would increase the chances of engine damage more than operating on a side hill.

[Achto 29,348]

2 hours ago, Brockport Bill said:

higher oil level help prevent the loss of adequate oil circulation on a short hill?

 

It shouldn't hurt. If you are only running on a small incline for a short period of time there should not be an issue. Cub Cadets had a big issue mowing long ditch banks.

[pfrederi 18,628]

Lots of different machines had problems  Sideways cranks and fore and aft cranks.  Not sure I would believe all the failures of one type only came from side hill vs. up/down

[8ntruck 7,771]

 It is pretty safe to say that oil level and the direction the engine was tilted are only part of the many varibales that caused the failures.  The hour meter in my C-195 with a series 1 KT 19 shows over 1000 hours.  The engine still runs smoothly, but has an oil leak need to chase down.

[pfrederi 18,628]

I have a KT17 series one came from a JD 317 had about 2000 hours. then sat in a barn for a few years.  Still starts and runs..smokes on start up but clears up quickly.

[WHX?? 51,688]

10 hours ago, Achto said:

Scrub Cadet the crank shaft is in line with the tractor.

Yep forgot about that ... 

[WHX?? 51,688]

1 hour ago, 8ntruck said:

C-195 with a series 1 KT

Mine started and ran good but a smokin joker so ring issue? 

[8ntruck 7,771]

3 minutes ago, WHX?? said:

Mine started and ran good but a smokin joker so ring issue? 

Possibly. 

 

Mine sat in a field for 20 years.  I shot some Marvel Mystery Oil in the cylinders, cranked it, let it sit a bit, then got it running and put it to a bit of work.   Usually starts after a couple cranks, smokes a bit on startup, then eases off.  Uses too much oil to be getting past the rings, though.  Most of the oil loss seems to be a crank seal. 

 

Have not had a chance to take the tins off to check the seals.  Probably ought to pull the heads as well to get a look at the cylinders.  Jobs for later this summer.

 

Sorry @Brockport Bill.  We seem to have derailed your thread a bit.

[953 nut 59,728]

19 hours ago, 8ntruck said:

Considering that the oil drips off of the cam shaft onto the crank, I'll  guess that in a Wheel Horse with the crank across the frame, going up hill and down hill would increase the chances of engine damage more than operating on a side hill.

Gravity is straight down toward the center of the earth. If you go up a hill, down a hill or sideways across the hill gravity is still straight down. If the oil spray was directed toward the crank journals when on level ground or up to fifteen degrees and you exceed this then the spray may not get where it should. Overfilling the crank case will not change the fact that gravity is straight down.